The children (show spoilers)

[Steppricon]

[Webswinger]

I just realized that the Hound was finished with a rock, and Arya chickened out of trying to kill Sandor with a rock. I think stuff like that are what makes the books and the show so great.

How do you guys think they are going to handle Briennes visit to the quiet isle? Will the scene with the elder brother be cut? Does she think that Sandor is dead, does she care? Will they cut that scene in the show? If the Clagane bowl is a real thing then some version of the scene has to happen. It could be that someone else goes to the isle hunting the Hound. I don't know who would have a reason, maybe someone tring to get the reward. If it is Brienne I would think it will be after her scene with lady stone heart. I know that's changes the timeline. I think that they will met sooner than later. Even though Brienne didn't look too injured I think she is. The hound fight took the place of the Rouge and Biter fight.

My brother who is a show watcher, made an observation about Jaime. I have to say he may have something with show Jaime. He said that when Jaime is around good people ie Brienne he is good/honorable. When he is around bad people ie Cersei he is bad. When we first see him he is reading about the deeds of the kings guard, and turns to his page. Cersei comes in gives him what he wants from her and he flings the book across the table without a second thought. This is another example of the dual personality of Jamie.

[SandSnake]

Overall I enjoyed this episode, and season, but I think they lost their way with the portrayal of the Lannisters. Jaime is one of my fav characters in the books, and the show was really hitting it last season with their portrayal, but S4 Jaime was a disappointment.

[DarrenT]

I think as book readers we do tend to focus on the complaints more than the good changes the show has made (myself included). I genuinely think most changes are for the good or at the very least understandable and forgivable (ie. budget, time, simplicity). There are many scenes in the 4 seasons of the show that never take place or at least we don't see them take place because of how the books are written in POV. The Varys-Littlefinger convos, the Robert and Cersei conversation about their marriage in season 1, the Tywin-Arya stuff were all some of my favourite scenes from the show and they were all show changes. That being said, I think we do have a case to be upset about changes like Tysha.

Here are my top best and worst changes from season 4:

Best changes:

1) The Hound and Brienne fight. I think the show could have done a lot more with Rorge and Biter but this was a very good replacement and arguably better. The fight in the books between Brienne and Rorge and Biter was great and took almost everything out of Brienne but it was clearly a good guy vs bad guys. In the show, I didn't want either of them to lose and the tension that came from good guy vs good guy was great.

2) Extra Tywin scenes. Anything and everything that had Charles Dance in it was great. Tywin is one of my favourite characters in the whole series and the show featured him much more prominently than the books and I loved it. The scenes with him and Olenna were exceptional, his lecture to Tommen, him and Arya and I loved Cersei standing up to him in the finale, which doesn't happen in the books.

3) I love what they are setting up with Grey Worm and Missandei. In the show these two have become characters with their own desires and motivations where in the books they are just followers of Daenerys. I still like them in the books but they are simply her captain of the Unsullied and her translator. This is drawing me into Dany's storyline more than the books did at times.

Worst changes:

1) No surprise here but the Jaime and Cersei rape scene was, at best, terrible filmmaking. It's not how it was written, it's not how GRRM intended it and it is out of Jaime's character. However, as Aziz pointed out, the characters don't consider it rape so I won't either and just do my best to forget that it happened.

2) No Stoneheart. This would have been one of the best cliffhangers on TV in recent memory. The only forgivable excuse I can think of for not doing it in the finale is that they were unable to get Michelle Fairley. But even that is not completely forgivable. They only really needed her for one single shot when she removes her hood. OR they didn't even need to show her face. She could have lowered her hood and we see from behind her, the Frey's reaction and a simple line like "...I saw them slit your throat..". Or just some allusion to it being Catelyn like her holding Robb's crown or one of those creepy-ass dream catcher things she makes. It could and should have been the last thing we saw of this season.

3) Bran's final scene in the finale from outside the cave to inside was very disappointing for me. This might just be me being a picky book reader but I just don't understand the changes. I thought the skeletons were a terrible choice. Buried wights, as it was in the books, was one of the scariest things I hadn't even considered. North of the Wall is potentially riddled with buried wights. It seems like real people with makeup to look like wights would have been easier and cheaper to do that the CG skeletons. Secondly, Leaf's fireballs were an odd and troubling choice. It opens the door for much more high fantasy, which goes against GRRM's vision of magic in this world. She could have easily just wielded a torch to scare off the wights/skeletons. Lastly, Bloodraven just looked like an old skinny Santa Clause sitting in a tree. I'm hoping we just didn't see a good shot of all the roots going though him, but from what we saw, very disappointed.

4) No Tysha has huge ramifications. I don't mind the show cutting out a different whore/wife of Tyrion's that he is dealing with directly before the bombshell of finding Shae. But what this omission does to the plot going forward is staggering.
A) I believe Tyrion loses a lot, if not all, his motivation for going to Tywin's chamber without it being a direct result of him just learning about Tysha. I don't think Tyrion, in a normal state of mind, would be this stupid and take this risk.
B) Tyrion and Jaime part on good terms, which may potentially negate Tyrion's desire to help Dany bring down his house.
C) Tyrion doesn't tell Jaime "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know" which plays a MASSIVE role in Jaime and Cersei's split. This pushes Jaime to the point where he ignores Cersei's plea for help in her trial by combat. Heavy stuff.

Overall this show is still as good or better than anything else on TV and I actually think Season 4 as a whole was the best since season 1.

What are some of your best and worst changes?

[Webswinger]

here are my two lists

Good changes
1. The Hound and Brienne fight. It was a great fight brutal fight scene that showed to skilled powerful warriors going at it. It didn't matter that a woman was involved. I actually liked that she drew first. She believes that Arya needs saving and the hound is a viscous killer. So when it becomes clear that she is not going to "save" Arya with words, she draws. She didn't strike immediately she allowed him to draw and ready himself. So IMO it wasn't a Han Greedo moment. I found myself rooting for both and didn't want either to lose, but of course I knew that the Hound would come out on the short end. Also I thought it was a nice touch that she beat him with a rock and Arya chickened out of trying to kill him with a rock.

2. All the extra scenes with Arya and the Hound. There were a bunch of great quotes one of my favorites is "Who approaches the Bloody Gate" "the bloody Hound"

3. I know that I'm going to get ripped for this one but I liked the no lady Stoneheart thing. the last Episode was so packed that I think it wouldn't have the same impact as when they do it all by its self next season. I'm thinking episode 1 or 2, with some hints dropped that the BWB are more violent and have a new leader.

4. I to like all the new scenes with Tywin. The one that sticks out the most is his scene with Tommen, that lecture set up so much. It gave Tommen the OK to be manipulated my his adviser and the power struggle to become that adviser, IE Cersei or Margaery.

5. Another thing that I like will be unpopular here. Shae going for the knife. To me it proved that Show Shae was in it for the money all along. I maybe seeing the whole thing through colored glasses, because that is what I want to see. I have made my case for what I think the whole Shae Tyrion thing

Changes I didn't like

1. Jamie rape scene it could have been shot better. I don't believe that no one on the show brought up that this comes off like Jaime is raping his sister. Just because Cersei don't see it as rape doesn't mean any thing she is in denial. Kinda like the spouse who gets beat and says that its not what you think.

2. The whole Tyrion Jamie conversation in the last episode, DarrenT pretty much covered it better than I can, so I'll just say "YEAH WHAT HE SAID!!"

3. The Thenns, and the wildling raiding in general. It seems to me that the show made them more over the top violent. I agree that Tormund is going to take the Thenns place in the marriage.

4. The Hound robbing the farmer of the silver. I know that it was set up for Ayra taking the silver but I still didn't like it. It almost seems like the DDs are trying to see show much "gray" they can make fan favorite characters before we turn on them. I think that pushed the fans to much with Ygritte, and a lot of show watchers turned on her.

5.I wasn't a big fan of Jon going to Crasters Keep. It just seemed like filler to me. Plus it was just another reminder of Coldhand not being there.

I'm sure that there are other things that will pop up then I rewatch the season and reread the books.

[jom]

The best and worst changes for me are...who cares?

The bottom line is that it is a well acted, well written TV show which is simply an interpretation of the books. You have both to enjoy.

Are there things I like and dislike about the TV show (not comparing to the books)? Sure...but overall it's a fun show to watch and one of the best on TV overall.

Anyone that suggests the TV show is "ruined" by anything not in the books or any kind of changes is nitpicky and ludicrous given how good the show written and acted.

Just my opinion.

jom

[Webswinger]

[SerKnute]

[jom]

[SerKnute]

My take on the season finale and the season in general...

Jon/Mance: I liked this scene for the most part. I liked the dialogue back and forth with Jon and Mance, the slight jabs Mance has for Jon (All your vows?) and even his perception that Jon may have come to assassinate him were well done. I do like Ciaran as an actor and you can see how comfortable he appears when delivering his lines.

No real problems with this scene, although it seems to me that Mance's original spiel to Jon wasn't just getting the Free Folk south of the Wall. It might be my memory but it could also be a detail that was just thrust upon us. It just kind of bothers me that Mance has had these small groups take on very dangerous tasks (having Tormund and his group scale the Wall and conduct merciless attacks on the smallfolk in order to goad the NW into coming out to fight them), yet, he knows the NW doesn't have that many men. Let's just say for example, what if Tormund's group had succeeded? Now you've killed all the Crows when your true goal was to stop the bleeding so to speak of the Free Folk and get south of the Wall. It presents problems. Even as it stands, Mance is placing a lot of expectations on the NW to have attacked them and then expects them to turn around and treat with him? That seems a bit of a stretch on Mance's part, but it's a small detail, but it's not so small as to be completely innocuous.

Jon/Mance/Stannis/Davos: A good scene for all intents. I liked the visuals of Stannis' Army riding in, that gave a nice epic feel to the scene. The dialogue was pretty good and I liked the exchanges between Mance and Stannis. I think it was also a nice initial exchange between Jon and Stannis. Us book-readers know the Jon and Stannis relationship is significant to the Wall's plot and there are a lot of good exchanges the two share so I'm hoping that the show continues that dynamic from the book. I'm anxious to see further interaction between these two, I think Kit and Stephen could have some really good scenes together.

Cersei/Qyburn/Pycelle: I liked this scene too, I appreciated how the show is keeping the conflict between Pycelle and Qyburn as far as the differences in their medical opinions and showing the audience that even among the more knowledgeable seniors there's stark differences of opinion. Pycelle is saying there's nothing to be done but to ease Gregor's passing, but Qyburn's like; ahhh not just yet, I have a couple of tricks yet. I also like Cersei's continued disdain for Pycelle and that Pycelle's power/authority is being severely diminished. I'm wondering, does the show decide to flesh this dynamic out more? Could Pycelle turn to the Citadel for perhaps some guidance or just report back to the Citadel what the current regime is doing with respect to the Maester's order? Would be a nice way for the Citadel story to get off the ground even if Pycelle is ultimately dismissed or ignored by the other Grand Maesters.

Cersei/Tywin: A good scene and it was nice to see the show keeping up with the small arcs that are out there that book readers are well aware of but show-only viewers might need some backstory on. The threat on Cersei's part was a bit surprising but not something I 'never expected'. I like that the show at least touches on the notion that Tywin had to have known about Jaime/Cersei or have been seriously deluding himself, I think that's important for non-book readers. I did have a small quibble about Cersei referencing the past 20 years, when in reality, Jaime and Cersei have been incestuous since around puberty isn't it, when they're caught by the septa and taken before Joanna? I realize that even with that information it's not particularly a certainty that Tywin would've been informed about it but it does seem a little bit of a stretch to think that he didn't know or had no clue, I guess it's supposed to show us how deluded he actually was. I really liked that line with Cersei too, well done and good acting by Lena and Charles. I did think this was a great scene though especially since this was an added scene, well done on the show's part.

Cersei/Jaime: Not a lot to this scene but I think it does help to tie back to the 'rape' scene back in Baelor's Sept and show us that as far as Cersei was concerned it wasn't technically a rape. I thought they should've kept to the original material to show Jaime's hypocritical stance about having sex in the LC office but not in Baelor's Sept, it really would've made the sex scene in front of Joff's dead body a lot clearer.

Dany: I think this was a good scene both in the dialogue and delivery. I know it serves the purpose of showing us that Dany is seeing the grey areas within her decisions and I like that she is still actually struggling with them. I like that she is still sticking to her guns and feels so strongly about slavery but I think it also shows that she's also now seeing some situations that she didn't necessarily predict. It felt like a "Duh" moment but I like that she gave him the solution of contracting with the former slave-owner (why wouldn't contracts or something similar be a natural transition from the Slave/Master dynamic?). As far as the Dragons and chaining them up, yea I knew it had to happen so it was a sad scene to watch and again as Aziz said, kudo's to the sound dept. for having such realistic sounds of anguish on the part of the dragons, it felt powerful. However, the other side of this moral quandary for her is; if she refuses to use the dragons as a display of power or as a tool of power then I feel it weakens her in ways. Aegon didn't conquer with Armies alone... I think eventually you have to employ the dragons or the power they have is wasted. I mean it's one thing to win a battle or a war with men only, it certainly says something on its own, no doubt. However, all things being equal, eventually you may stand across from an Army who has your number on any particular day, having those dragons in reserve or as the Vanguard is an Ace not many have, I think it's a huge mistake not to keep that ace handy and READY! But that's probably an argument for a later time, just mark my words now, you heard it here!

Aemon/NW: The funeral scene was a nice scene and I appreciated that they kept to the funeral rites from the books as well. The imagery of Mel looking at Jon through the fire was nicely done, a nice setup for their future interactions, I kind of wanted just one line from her to him, something like, Jon Snow... I have seen you in the fires... but there's time for that to happen still.

Jon/Tormund: A good scene by and large. My small quibble with the scene is Tormund in one breath saying the Dead can't hear you and in the next, saying Ygritte deserves a true Northern burial. Otherwise it was a well done scene, it's just these li'l writing discrepancies that don't go so well with the overall tenor of the person or with the scene itself that bother me. It's like did no one on the writing team see this and think to themselves, uhh that sounds like it'd be contradictory?

Bran/Co: I liked this scene for the most part. I didn't mind the way they changed this from books, since we knew Coldhands wasn't part of this it had to be changed somewhat. I thought it was all good except for the 'capability' of the so-called wights, they appear too intelligent and too capable and a lot different from the wights we've been introduced to already. Leaf tossing out fireballs or whatever they were seemed a little over the top too. I mean all that the scene accomplished could've been done without the wights being so agile and seemingly intelligent, just make it a larger force of shambling wights, etc... I mean the scene works ok, but I just think the deviation is unnecessary. Sad moment in losing Jojen and a really good acting job by Meera's actress.

Bloodraven/Bran: A decent scene but I agree with most that there should've have been a little more in terms of Bloodraven's appearance. I think the one red eye was the LEAST of what they should've made sure he had. The scene delivers the necessary information so I have no real problem with it but it felt to me that his appearance should've reflected his book appearance just a wee-bit more, a branch through a limb, the aged look, or the red-eye, very distinct physical characteristics, the dude appears like an older fella with a beard, I half thought, is that Billy Gibbons of ZZ-Top or David Lo Pan or...?

Brienne/Pod/Sandor/Arya: I thought this scene was well done. It's completely made-up as a divergence from the books but I really appreciated this scene and the acting/choreography was good. I liked how the fight devolved into a more of a brawl than a swordfight but I thought it was interesting too that they sort of show us a berserking Brienne towards the end. I thought that was an interesting dynamic and this is a case where in my opinion I think the show has done well. I'm not sure why some of the other divergences aren't as well done or seem to have enough attention paid to them to make them well done to me, there are several but I think they deserve praise for this scene. With respect to the podcast's discussion on this scene, I think it was important for Brienne's character to adhere to her Vow and in that sense not so out of the realm of reasonableness for Brienne to draw first on Sandor. I think too that this will help her resolve going forward, she was within inches of getting ahold of Arya and she slipped through her grasp. I mean Sandor has the right of it for the most part, no one in Arya's direct family is around, even if Brienne is to find the girls, where is she going to take them, beyond the vow, what can Brienne offer?

Tyrion/Jaime/Shae/Tywin/Varys: I thought this was a good scene, I know the lack of a Tysha reveal makes the scene a bit different but I still think it works pretty well. There's still a possibility that the show can do a Tysha reveal but it's likely that has been scrapped which does leave the way Tyrion feels about Jaime a bit off from the books but that's probably not a big enough change or omission to cause any issues. As far as Shae/Tyrion, I think the scene makes it look more justifiable for Tyrion to murder Shae since she went for a knife but us book-readers know it wasn't self-defense, just a minor issue in my view. The part of the scene with Tywin was well done, I think they're the show's two best actors but I felt it was well done, acting, expressions, all of it. I totally agree that Tyrion didn't need any-more reason to want to kill Tywin, I know the lack of Tysha reveal makes the whole "whore" issue a little muddier, but even without the Tysha reveal Tyrion had plenty to be upset about. Tywin gave Tyrion shit in his War Council and put him in the Vanguard before naming Tyrion the Hand and sending him to King's Landing. Tywin told Tyrion he had no right to Casterly Rock, gave him no credit for the Battle of the Blackwater, aside from going to war for him when he was captive in the Vale and naming him acting Hand, he's done nothing but put him down. He's a Lannister... yet being a Lannister isn't good enough to keep him from being wrongfully accused of murdering the King, Tywin's hypocrisy was enough for Tyrion. I liked that Varys had thoughts of heading back to the Red Keep but after hearing the bells decides, nah I think I'm up for a boat-ride... It is interesting though, how does this affect (if at all) Varys in the next season with respect to his interactions with Pycelle and Kevan?

Arya/Captain: Pretty straightforward scene, good dialogue and acting. I liked the actor's facial expression at hearing Valar Morghulis and his response was equally as good. I do think I agree with Aziz in that there's still time for the crew to learn Arya's name... It would've made for some good lines within the scene but I'm not sure how much setup it would've needed, would show-only viewers have gotten the meaning from the information they have about Faceless Men to this point? I think they need some setup for the impact to be delivered adequately.

Overall, I thought it was a great season. I may have to wait until the whole thing is done to see how certain story-arcs are carried forward or left, etc, but there were a lot of characters I was hoping to get some information on during this season but got none. If anything, my main criticisms of the show aren't so much about the changes they do it's how they're done or to what detail they're done. Most of the time I don't mind the changes but there are a lot of subtle changes too and some of those could be done better in my humble opinion, like Ashaya has pointed out, why change a character from Female to Male from book to show when that particular minor character doesn't even have a line!? Some changes that are made seem like busy-work for no particular reason at all and I think that does a disservice to the show and the original work which is what this adaptation is based on. Hopefully they review some of the things that worked as far as changes go and some of things that didn't work and do better going forward, I just hate seeing good shows make some of the same mistakes several times over.