Jaime and Tywin

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Jaime and Tywin

Postby WinterIsHere » Tue May 13, 2014 4:03 pm

I was going to tag spoilers in the title but after typing my spiel it didn't seem necessary.

So I was thinking about this. Earlier in the season it was mentioned that Joffrey established a precedent by releasing Barristan that could be exploited to relieve Jaime. My main issue with this is, why doesn't Tywin just dismiss Jaime? He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who takes no for an answer. And the precedent is dismissal, not voluntary retirement or stepping down. Cercie doesn't consent to her marriage to Loras.

I don't remember how far Jaime was willing to go to defend his place in the King's Guard in the books.

Why does Tywin seem to need Jaime's approval for the move? Sure he needs to know Jaime will take the seat at Casterly Rock, but dose he really think Jaime will either fight to stay or go into exile?
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Re: Jaime and Tywin

Postby Vaxis » Tue May 13, 2014 4:15 pm

Barristan was dismissed because he was in his sixties and it was easy to skew the story and make it seem like Robert getting gored by a boar was a fault of Barristans duty. Without some valid reason to relieve Jaime of his duty, Jaime himself would need to consent to dismissal. Tywin has to keep up public appearances for his house, and he shouldn't be seen dismissing Jaime forcefully unless there is a true reason for it.

It was the same in the book, Tywin asked Jaime to step down and remove the White Cloak, but Jaime refused. There isn't a lot Tywin can do except attempt to bargain with him, which he doesn't do, of course.
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Re: Jaime and Tywin

Postby DarrenT » Tue May 13, 2014 5:26 pm

Ser Barristan was dismissed by Cersei. I think she also dismissed Boros Blount before Tywin reinstated him. Cersei isn't respected throughout the realm like Tywin is (few are). I cant see Tywin being okay with dismissing his own son, brining shame to himself and Jaime. If Jaime were to step down, that would only slightly dishonour Jaime (who's honour is beyond repair) and leave Tywin's in tact.
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Re: Jaime and Tywin

Postby SerKnute » Sun May 18, 2014 4:15 am

I think there's several things at play. I agree that Tywin could use precedent to dismiss Jaime, losing his sword hand is arguably a better reason than the reason given for dismissing Ser Barristan, especially given that we know that Robert commanded everyone to stay back. I realize this is our perception versus the character's perceptions but I myself do not believe that Jaime is more capable than Ser Barristan at the present time and I think it would be hard for us to believe that the characters would have a different view, Jaime even realizes if anyone were to know how poor he is presently with his offhand, that he'd be in serious trouble. I know as far as the storyline goes it was done to make room for Joff to name Sandor to the KG, but with the public reason given, Jaime losing his hand seems more reasonable than; you let the king get gored, arguable I guess since we have to pretend we don't know the details of Robert's death.

Next though is that although Tywin could certainly use Jaime's lack of his sword hand as a legitimate reason, it's not just removing him from the KG, Tywin wants assurance that Jaime will will do what he wants; to rule Casterly Rock, to father some legitimate children and continue the Lannister line, especially so because the male line is considered the most important outside of Dorne. I think George purposely didn't reveal Tywin's true thoughts, but my hunch is that Tywin is quite aware of the rumors of Jaime and Cersei's incest. While he won't publicly acknowledge it, I think he has to know, given that they were caught together when they were younger, though I admit it's possible Joanna kept that hidden from Tywin. I do however feel that he knows the rumors have merit and this is his way of "just-in-case" taking care of that possible problem. He's been trying to separate them, Cersei via his proposed match to Loras and Jaime as well because he'd go back to Casterly Rock. Because he doesn't really have any leverage to make Cersei marry I think he was trying to work on Jaime. Also, getting either one of them married off and producing children would serve to quell those rumors and possibly limit more questioning towards Tommen's legitimacy.

Lastly, because of Joff's death, this further complicates Tywin's ability to manipulate Cersei's future as she remains Queen Regent for Tommen until he comes of age which won't be for several years. This makes the focus on Jaime much more urgent.

That's how it felt to me both in the books and on the show.
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Re: Jaime and Tywin

Postby Heartsbane » Sun May 18, 2014 6:25 am

I think SerKnute nailed it. Publicly dismissing Ser Barristan was a brash and stupid decision on Cersei's part, and I can't see Tywin doing that to anyone unless he was planning on creating an enemy. And Tywin has the family honor to deal with on top of everything.
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