S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

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S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon May 12, 2014 4:41 pm

What an amazing acting job in this episode. Peter Dinklage and Charles Dance are at an all-time high as usual, and I think this might have been Nikolai as Jaime's best full episode (the bath scene last season was tough to top though). His reaction when he realizes Tywin played him into renouncing the Kingsguard and that he never intended to let Tyrion be killed was brilliant. Also his look after Tyrion demands trial by combat was pretty perfect. And Theon was spot on as a fully-broken creature.

Can't wait for the podcast tonight!
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby LawHawk » Mon May 12, 2014 5:10 pm

Also looking forward to the podcast.

In the last HoW podcast, Aziz speculated that when Daario took all those ships, that could be a way to completely cut out the Greyjoy plot. That seemed particularly likely with "Yara" headed to the Dreadfort - I thought she would be captured and end up a Stannis captive before ever going back to the Iron Islands, preventing her from taking part in a Kingsmoot. Well, now she's headed back to the Iron Islands. She could still end up with Stannis, but I have hope.
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon May 12, 2014 5:40 pm

Once Aziz and Ashaya pointed that out, I thought it was probably true. And, like you LawHawk, I thought Yara would be captured by Ramsay and then eventually end up with Stannis. They seem to be leaving Balon alive a weirdly long time. We saw the scene with the leeches so even non-book readers know its coming. I thought I heard a rumour that Euron and Victarion's characters were being combined into one in the show, but now I can't remember where I read that. Hopefully not true...

Another thought occurred to me; given we know that Tywin never intended to let Tyrion die, and his manipulation of Jaime to renounce the Kinsguard, if Tywin were given undeniable proof that the Tyrell's killed Joffrey do you think he would act any differently?

I strongly suspect he wouldn't. Basically when Tyrion is found guilty and is sent to the Wall, Tywin relieves himself of a major blight on his and the Lannister family's perceived pride. And by manipulating Jaime he finally gets his heir back. Of course Tyrion destroyed all of this brilliant planning by demanding a trial by combat so this is kind of a moot point.
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby sweetyft » Mon May 12, 2014 5:47 pm

DarrenT wrote:What an amazing acting job in this episode.

I agree. I really liked this episode.

LawHawk wrote:In the last HoW podcast, Aziz speculated that when Daario took all those ships, that could be a way to completely cut out the Greyjoy plot. That seemed particularly likely with "Yara" headed to the Dreadfort - I thought she would be captured and end up a Stannis captive before ever going back to the Iron Islands, preventing her from taking part in a Kingsmoot. Well, now she's headed back to the Iron Islands. She could still end up with Stannis, but I have hope.

Well, all she said was that she was heading back to the ships so she could still be going to Deepwood Motte (I forgot if they hold other strongholds in the North at that point in the show). I fear they might cut out a lot of the Greyjoy's plot. I think they would still introduce the characters of Euron and Victarion next season but we might never see the Kingsmoot.
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby sweetyft » Mon May 12, 2014 5:59 pm

DarrenT wrote:Another thought occurred to me; given we know that Tywin never intended to let Tyrion die, and his manipulation of Jaime to renounce the Kinsguard, if Tywin were given undeniable proof that the Tyrell's killed Joffrey do you think he would act any differently?


I agree with you that Tywin would probably act the same way. What I am curious to know is how Cercei would react given undeniable proof that the Tyrell/LF killed Joffrey. I have always felt a strange conflicting vibe between show Cercei and Joffrey. So how much of this mascarade is she putting up out of grief and how much is out of hatred for Tyrion?
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon May 12, 2014 6:38 pm

sweetyft wrote:
DarrenT wrote:Another thought occurred to me; given we know that Tywin never intended to let Tyrion die, and his manipulation of Jaime to renounce the Kinsguard, if Tywin were given undeniable proof that the Tyrell's killed Joffrey do you think he would act any differently?


I agree with you that Tywin would probably act the same way. What I am curious to know is how Cercei would react given undeniable proof that the Tyrell/LF killed Joffrey. I have always felt a strange conflicting vibe between show Cercei and Joffrey. So how much of this mascarade is she putting up out of grief and how much is out of hatred for Tyrion?


That's a good point too. If I were Cersei and my hated little brother who's constantly threatening me is found guilty of killing my increasingly uncontrollable son, she may be somewhat relieved to be regent again for a much kinder and easier to manipulate son. Having said that, in the books there is no question that she only feels grief over losing Joffrey whereas in the show she says things that suggest she knew the monster he was.
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby Blucifer » Mon May 12, 2014 7:48 pm

Some great performances I must concur, I thought some real nuanced life was given to Jamie's character that had probably been missing, Peter Dinklage however stole the episode.
I really didn't like the Greyjoys at the Dreadfort thread, I appreciated that it showed how Theon had now truly become the broken creature that is Reek, but I thought that the whole scene or scenes from the reading of the letter onboard the ship and onwards was a little rushed. As a vehicle to moving the story forward I thought it was a little badly handled, apart from cementing Reek as Reek it didn't do justice to anyone else, bearing in mind that includes two fairly important characters Yara and Ramsay, that's an oversight in my opinion.
Everything in Kings Landing was handled brilliantly, the tensions, the elements of hope that all the characters had, good or bad was portrayed wonderfully. What really was wonderful for me there was the concept of controlled rage, Tyrion taking blow after blow after blow, and finally unleashing his utter contempt on the whole proceedings and the padded out element from the books as to why Tywin was so angry that Tyrion had called for trail by combat and by doing so smashing Tywins plan to shreds. One step too far by Tywin, he really had to rub the 'whore' into Tyrions non-nose didn't he, superbly done and I was appreciative.
The best bit for me however and what was almost lost to those I watched it with was that you got to see the utter horror on Jamies face in that not only did he fear for his brother with Tyrions call for trail by combat but that he realised that was the death knell to him being able to escape his honourable prison of his own making - the kings guard. For me this was so beautifully handled, a very slight departure from the books because we never get Jamies feelings as regards the deal from Tywin because we never get to see that, but you could see in that one look that Nikolaj Coster-Waldau shot a Peter Dinklage the death of all kinds of redemption, powerful stuff.
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon May 12, 2014 11:18 pm

I agree with you on the Greyjoy/Bolton scene. After the very inspirational scene in episode 10 last season of Yara telling Balon she's going to save Theon and the montage of her sailing away with warriors I felt like this was very rushed and ultimately pointless. It kind of feels like they had one plan at the end of last season and have since decided against that and just wanted to wrap up that plotline as quickly as possible. It really didn't accomplish anything other than Theon Greyjoy being "dead" and now fully being Reek...but we already knew that. I suppose you could argue that now Asha is accepting her role as heir to Pyke but this could have been done last season once they got Ramsay's letter.

As to your point about Jaimie, I agree that the reaction shot at the end was amazing but I didn't get the sense of disappointment from Jaime on now not being able to leave the Kingsguard. To me his looks said:

1) I'm horrified for Tyrion
2) Am I going to be called upon by the crown to fight against my brother's champion and condemn him?

I don't think Jaimie wanted out of the Kinsguard for a couple of reasons

1) he seemed to be legitimately mad at himself when Tywin tricked him into vowing he would leave
2) he may still want to be close to Cersei even though she's clearly done with him and spirally downward
3) he seems to take a much more serious interest in protecting and somewhat advising Tommen. He gave a look to Tommen in this episode that said "well done" after Tommen spoke to the court and then also in the rape scene he vows to help Tommen as well
4) he could still leave the Kingsguard at any time if he wanted and if that is seen as dishonorable he says in an earlier episode "my honour is beyond repair"
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Tue May 13, 2014 7:12 pm

First off, Thanks to our hosts for the forum shout outs, this is a blossoming and welcoming community, and I visit every day.

Dance was on his game, his acting has been stellar for the entire series, it'll be tough to lose him. Dinklage has had his ups and downs for me, but he was AMAZING in the trial. The "yasha" rescue mission really turned me off, just more filler, but overall this was one of the more satisfying episodes thus far in terms of answering some questions and asking new ones. I'm looking forward to seeing how the play out Shea's betrayal, whether she was easily swayed or if it is pressure from cersei who seem very pleased with herself. I also wonder if the unsullied viewers need to be reminded of the varys / illyrio conversation, or if the producers are hoping the viewers have forgotten that when varys helps tyrion
A hall to die in, and men to bury me. I thank you, my lords...but I spit on your pity...I am a knight...I shall die a knight
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Re: S4E6 The Laws of Gods and Men (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Tue May 13, 2014 11:03 pm

In the books I got the impression that Shae was threatened into betraying Tyrion but in the show I think it's more of payback for her. She seemed quite spiteful with her "I'm a whore remember?" comment and I don't think she was paid off because we see her rejecting Varys' attempt to pay her off.

What impression did you all get from the books? Was she speaking under direst or was it spite. Her being in Tywin's bed suggests she was a somewhat willing participant. I originally thought that the show wasn't going to have Shae in Tywins bed...it just seems so out of left field for both characters. But then Tywin had that comment when Cersei pointed Shae out to him "Bring her to my chamber".
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