Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby LarsPenry » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:30 am

I'm going to predict that we see Brown Ben Plumm on Sunday night, we still haven't seen Hoji Fortuna who was supposed to be in this season, I think he is in fact going to play the one and only Brown Ben Plumm.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby McDougal » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:08 pm

I think there was an interview where he basically said that he played an unhappy parent who brings some goat bones for Dany... (one of his kids got eaten ba boom boom tish) (ahh goat humour)

I think! Don't quote me on this haha
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:26 pm

I hope you're right about Brown Ben but I have a feeling that he and Daario are actually combined in the show. With show Daario captaining the Second Sons I wonder if he will betray Dany like Brown Ben did?
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:52 pm

I am very sorry to have to say this. But I am pretty disappointed with what I thought was going to be the finest hour of the show. The finale had some great scenes, but huge changes that were quite a let-down.

PROS:

- Stannis charging, Jon meeting with Mance, the funeral at Castle Black... I loved all of the Wall stuff. It's got an exciting future, waiting to see these characters interact.

- The Hound vs Brienne was harrowing and fresh new material. Arya departs at last after a scene with the Hound that felt to me very much from the books.

- I like the Dany scene. Not much else to say but that I liked it. The dragons look great as always.

- Cersei and Qyburn was quite good, Qyburn really creeped me out with his comments. More Lannister scenes followed, which would never ever have happened with book Cersei, but they were powerfully acted nonetheless.

CONS:

- The skeleton wights, while being very cool visually, were somewhat comical and not truly frightening. It got worse when Leaf used magic lightning fireballs to save the day. Meera killing Jojen was tragic and emotional, at least.

- Bloodraven was an enormous disappointment. I thought they would at least attempt some amount of prosthetics and CGI with him, but not even a tiny bit. No corpse look, no one red eye, no roots growing through his body and face. Just an old man sitting on a tree.

- Not a hint of the truth about Tysha. Jaime and Tyrion part on happy terms instead of the depressingly sad way of the book. Tyrion is whitewashed further, when he is forced to kill Shae out of self-defence, afterwards apologizing to her dead body. The Tywin scene is ok, but loses a lot of its power without the Tysha reveal. Varys boards the ship with Tyrion, clearly set to replace Illyrio.

- No Stoneheart. I have no more to say on that front.

Overall, though I loved the content at the Wall, the episode fell flat for me, and that's mostly because I was really looking forward to the changing character of Tyrion as he goes down a dark road. I was also incredibly excited for Bloodraven and Leaf, which looked to me like a bad joke.The removal of Stoneheart just added more vitriol into my system. I will need a long while to recover from that disappointment.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:49 am

Unfortunately, I have to agree. Two of my all-time favourite sequences from the books were not done justice, I feel.

Firstly, I think Tysha has been completely written out of the show. I don't recall her ever being mentioned. This change then leads to Tyrion and Jaime parting on good terms (which I don't actually mind) but it has the butterfly effect of Tyrion losing his motivation for seeking out Tywin. In the book, I feel, Tyrion is motivated to go to Tywin to find out if Tysha is alive and where she is and/or kill him for what he did to her. But the way it was done in the show was a bit confusing. Would he have killed Tywin if he didn't find Shae there? If he wasn't going to kill him then why was he going there in the first place? We lost a lot of his motivation and I think both scenes suffered from it.

Second I definitely agree that I was not at all a fan of the Jason and the Argonauts-looking skeletons and Leaf's fireballs. It looked very CG and was not scary at all. I think buried Wights would have been much more terrifying. And Bloodraven was definitely a let down. I think they were going for trying not to completely show him for suspense but come on this is a season finale! I wanted to see roots growing out of him and his missing eye and everything that was described so well in the book. This scene was a huge miss. I agree that Jojen knowing this was his death and Meera slitting his throat was sad and well done. I guess this lends support to the theory that he is already dead as of Bran's last Dance chapter?

No Stoneheart sucked. I wonder if this means it won't happen at all or just not now. I'm hopeful we'll still see it but it makes much more sense in a season finale then it does in a season premiere, in my opinion.

I thought they did a good job with the Dany stuff even though I was least looking forward to this of all the scenes I thought we might get in this episode. Not much to go on here but I thought it was handled well. Emilia's acting was a bit lacking when she first finds out about the little girl. This should be an earth-shattering, reality check for her. Her best weapons for conquering and ruling are basically out of her control at this point (at least Drogon is) I guess she's not the most expressive but I think she did a good job while chaining up the dragons.

The Hound vs Brienne was an awesome fight. Gritty and fairly realistic (if you can believe a man can withstand several rocks to the temple) but for TV it was great. I really liked Rory McCann's acting as well when he's begging Arya for death. I'll be sad to not have the Hound around but hopefully they include the quiet isle stuff. It would actually be more interesting with him and Brienne already having met.

The Wall stuff was good except for the moment where Jon is about to reach for the knife in Mance's tent. I watched that scene three times and I still don't get it. Jon looks at the knife, Mance looks over at the knife, we hear a blade being drawn but Jon doesn't even move. It seemed very odd to me.

I did like the rest of that scene, I liked Jon and Stannis (lots of potential for their future scenes) and I liked Jon seeing Melisandre through the fire. Nice setup going forward.

I also liked Lena Headey's performance and I think this episode was a nice start to her decent into madness. She had a pretty crazy/wild look in her eyes when she went down to kiss Jaime's hand. Also a seriously creepy scene with Qyburn. I can't imagine what a non-book reader thought of that scene.

Overall I think it was a good finale (possibly still the best episode 10 since season 1) but it fell short of my, perhaps unrealistic, expectations.

Very interested to hear what everyone else though of it, but especially Sean. I'm sure the Leaf and Bloodraven scene was completely out of left field for him.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby McDougal » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:50 am

Firstly it was a good episode and I enjoyed it thoroughly. It was the finale they've been waiting for.

But yeah massively disappointing in several areas. To Darren T I don't think they were unreasonable expectations. Here's my main problems ranked in order of importance (imho)

1. Tysha/Shae. The lack of Tysha is a gap in Tyrion's character that I think we'll all miss, it left Jaime and Tyrions last scene feeling empty? (Also leaves Jaime not being clear on why Tyrion killed Tywin) Also why on earth did he go to see Tywin if not for Tysha, it makes no sense! More problematic is the way he killed Shae, complete whitewashing of his character and in self defense, so it's all Shae's fault basically according to Dan and Dave. The Tywin scene was great but lacked something without Tysha, Shae substituted quite well but it could have been better. I think that's my main problem is that it could have been better, they could have built the Tysha story line up, but they didn't. It also raises yet more questions of the shows portrayal of women in a season already fraught with controversy.


2. No Lady Stoneheart, like wow seems like such an obvious ending, I mean finale's don't get better than that! Especially considering they could have put all the Arya stuff after Tyrion's bit, so we'd of had Brienne talking about Catelyn, Arya shouting that all her family are dead before leaving Westeros before a final LS scene. Sure it might not have worked that way but in an episode where Catelyn was mentioned a few times it would of fitted in well whatever.

3. Bloodraven and the wights, Yep not a fan of Jason and the Argonauts style Skelly's, normal zombies may be a flogged horse but at least they're not silly! and yeah the lack of roots and desecatedness was dissapointing, it's laughable that they expect to win an emmy for that.

4. A small niggle but Jaime's lack of character development this season, as shown in his scene with Cersei, no change of heart from him, no weiner hanging out of his pants patheticallyXD It makes me worried for next season.

All the above in my opinion are not unreasonable expectations. The below is but none the less a disappointment.

5. Lack of a battle between wildlings and Stannis, a favorite scene of mine! We didn't get Mance riding off to meet them:(

I did really like the Arya and the hound scene though!
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:34 am

Funny thing is that Tysha DOES exist in the show. Tyrion told the story about her in season 1, and she was referred to twice in season 3. I really don't know why the show decided not to draw on that setup, except that they perhaps wanted Tyrions plot this year to end on a more positive note? If so, the impact is just muted.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:12 am

Vaxis wrote:Funny thing is that Tysha DOES exist in the show. Tyrion told the story about her in season 1, and she was referred to twice in season 3. I really don't know why the show decided not to draw on that setup, except that they perhaps wanted Tyrions plot this year to end on a more positive note? If so, the impact is just muted.


When does he mention Tysha? I'm sure you're right I just really can't remember.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:16 am

DarrenT wrote:
Vaxis wrote:Funny thing is that Tysha DOES exist in the show. Tyrion told the story about her in season 1, and she was referred to twice in season 3. I really don't know why the show decided not to draw on that setup, except that they perhaps wanted Tyrions plot this year to end on a more positive note? If so, the impact is just muted.


When does he mention Tysha? I'm sure you're right I just really can't remember.


Well in S1E9, Tyrion tells the story of Tysha to Shae and Bronn in Tywins camp.

In S3E5, in a small council scene where Tywin instructs Tyrion to wed Sansa, Tyrion angrily remarks "I was wed once, or don't you remember?", to which Tywin angrily replies "Only too well."

In S3E6, Bronn points out that Tyrion cannot marry Shae anyways, saying "How did marrying a whore work out for you last time?" and Tyrion responds "I should never have told you about that..."

I had thought this would have been substantial setup for the reveal, but it seems the show was more interested in preserving Tyrion and Jaime's relationship.
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Re: Episode Discussion (ASOIAF spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:33 pm

Vaxis wrote:
DarrenT wrote:
Vaxis wrote:Funny thing is that Tysha DOES exist in the show. Tyrion told the story about her in season 1, and she was referred to twice in season 3. I really don't know why the show decided not to draw on that setup, except that they perhaps wanted Tyrions plot this year to end on a more positive note? If so, the impact is just muted.


When does he mention Tysha? I'm sure you're right I just really can't remember.


Well in S1E9, Tyrion tells the story of Tysha to Shae and Bronn in Tywins camp.

In S3E5, in a small council scene where Tywin instructs Tyrion to wed Sansa, Tyrion angrily remarks "I was wed once, or don't you remember?", to which Tywin angrily replies "Only too well."

In S3E6, Bronn points out that Tyrion cannot marry Shae anyways, saying "How did marrying a whore work out for you last time?" and Tyrion responds "I should never have told you about that..."

I had thought this would have been substantial setup for the reveal, but it seems the show was more interested in preserving Tyrion and Jaime's relationship.


Thank you! I had forgotten all of that. I think you're right, after the outrage at Jaime's rape scene I wonder if preserving his relationship with Tyrion was changed from their original plan. Without the mention of Tysha in this episode and Tywin not say "wherever whores go..." I think we won't see Tyrion's search for Tysha, which is something that I find very interesting from the books.

Something I did particularly like was Cersei straight up telling Tywin about her and Jaime. Not only did this take balls from Cersei but I loved Tywin's reaction. He either honestly didn't know about it or had convinced himself it wasn't true. I would have loved to see Tywin's first scene with Jaime after learning this but I also like how Tywin, the most prideful man in Westeros, died shitting himself, knowing that he was leaving behind a dwarf son as his heir, an incestuous son and daughter and their bastard on the throne.
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