The children (show spoilers)

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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:09 pm

Sorry to double-post but another thing about Tyrion and Jaime's non-confrontation in their final scene is that Tyrion doesn't

A) falsely confess to killing Joffrey to try and hurt Jaime

and

B) we don't get "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know" which is something that drives the final wedge between Jaime and Cersei, to the point where he ignores her plea to be her champion

That scene, as it was written in the books, really defines the Lannister kids for the rest of the series to date. I really don't know how the show will get around these changes.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:34 pm

DarrenT wrote:Sorry to double-post but another thing about Tyrion and Jaime's non-confrontation in their final scene is that Tyrion doesn't

A) falsely confess to killing Joffrey to try and hurt Jaime

and

B) we don't get "she's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know" which is something that drives the final wedge between Jaime and Cersei, to the point where he ignores her plea to be her champion

That scene, as it was written in the books, really defines the Lannister kids for the rest of the series to date. I really don't know how the show will get around these changes.


Yes & yes, now with them parting on good terms, Jaime not knowing about cersei's cheating, Tyrion not knowing the truth, it's just a plot hole that didn't need to be there, it would've taken maybe 90 seconds for Jaime to tell the truth about tysha
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Webswinger » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:44 pm

DarrenT wrote:
Steppricon wrote:To derrenT,

Yes, a fleshed out show shae, with a rushed resolution, not satisfying at all. Why spend so much time establishing her as a jilted lover, only to have her final actions be a self preservationist? It just didn't make sense to me. And with Jaime and Tyrion, I guess since the show nearly succeeded as fully assassinating Jaimie's character with the scene In the sept, they didn't want to harm his character further with Tyrion being contemptful after hearing the truth about tysha


Yes you're right. I do think Shae in the show truly loved Tyrion but then this scene strongly implies she never did and was just using him for wealth. But if this is the case why did she refuse Varys' diamonds? I think book Shae would have jumped at that offer but in the show she wanted to stay with Tyrion. GRRM has said in an interview that book Shae never loved Tyrion. I wonder what D and D would say about show Shae.



I thought the shae scene was great. The show Shae had us believing that she loved Tyrion, her going for the knife proved that she didn't. As far as the diamonds, I think it fit perfectly. If she was in it for big money why take a pay off when she was sure she could get much much more.

Over all I think this episode was great. The fight between Breanne and the Hound was awesome and one of the most brutal fights scenes I ever saw. The bite played a big part in the fight. If you notice the hound was crushing her at first, but as the fight went on it became even then she took charge and destroyed him. It was also a great contrast to the viper and mtn fight. One you have agility v power and the other power v power. I have to say I loved it from the start. You have the little warrior talking to the big warrior them the two bad asses talking to each other, the whole thing was epic.

I have more thoughts but typing on my phone is tough. So I'll post them later
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:13 am

The show Shae had us believing that she loved Tyrion, her going for the knife proved that she didn't. As far as the diamonds, I think it fit perfectly. If she was in it for big money why take a pay off when she was sure she could get much much more.

I must disagree with this - Tyrion had said time and again that KL was dangerous, and I'm sure that if she didn't love Tyrion she would have cut and run there. I truly believe show-Shae loved Tyrion. The defensive act was interesting; seems to suggest that she believed Tyrion when he dumped her, but I got the feeling that her testimony at the trail wasn't entirely of her own will. I'm still trying to figure that stuff out...

The fight between Brienne and the Hound was awesome and one of the most brutal fights scenes I ever saw. The bite played a big part in the fight. If you notice the hound was crushing her at first, but as the fight went on it became even then she took charge and destroyed him.

I agree that I think the bite slowed the Hound down, but I realised this retrospectively and I sort of wish they'd had some throwaway line to remind us that the wound is still an issue for him. The fighting was brutal but I was surprised while watching at how well Brienne held her own (I mean, the Hound is pretty well accomplished with a sword). I realised later that the bite would have had a big role in that but it's easy to miss/forget it.

Also, damn Lena Heady. Got me all excited for SH. She trolled us all.
I was also disappointed that Tyrion and Jaime's scene ended differently. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how they play it out. Only ten months away...
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:32 am

Phoenix wrote:
The show Shae had us believing that she loved Tyrion, her going for the knife proved that she didn't. As far as the diamonds, I think it fit perfectly. If she was in it for big money why take a pay off when she was sure she could get much much more.

I must disagree with this - Tyrion had said time and again that KL was dangerous, and I'm sure that if she didn't love Tyrion she would have cut and run there. I truly believe show-Shae loved Tyrion. The defensive act was interesting; seems to suggest that she believed Tyrion when he dumped her, but I got the feeling that her testimony at the trail wasn't entirely of her own will. I'm still trying to figure that stuff out...

The fight between Brienne and the Hound was awesome and one of the most brutal fights scenes I ever saw. The bite played a big part in the fight. If you notice the hound was crushing her at first, but as the fight went on it became even then she took charge and destroyed him.

I agree that I think the bite slowed the Hound down, but I realised this retrospectively and I sort of wish they'd had some throwaway line to remind us that the wound is still an issue for him. The fighting was brutal but I was surprised while watching at how well Brienne held her own (I mean, the Hound is pretty well accomplished with a sword). I realised later that the bite would have had a big role in that but it's easy to miss/forget it.

Also, damn Lena Heady. Got me all excited for SH. She trolled us all.
I was also disappointed that Tyrion and Jaime's scene ended differently. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how they play it out. Only ten months away...


The love for Tyrion was obviously there in the show I found, it was just handled poorly in the end.

And I really just didn't see how the hounds neck wound was a factor. No visible signs of fever or infection, like brienne's fight with Jaime, he was obviously not himself, I think the producers wanted Brienne to win a fair fight, and if that was the case, we didn't need the bite at all in my opinion
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Webswinger » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:32 am

Phoenix wrote:
The show Shae had us believing that she loved Tyrion, her going for the knife proved that she didn't. As far as the diamonds, I think it fit perfectly. If she was in it for big money why take a pay off when she was sure she could get much much more.

I must disagree with this - Tyrion had said time and again that KL was dangerous, and I'm sure that if she didn't love Tyrion she would have cut and run there. I truly believe show-Shae loved Tyrion. The defensive act was interesting; seems to suggest that she believed Tyrion when he dumped her, but I got the feeling that her testimony at the trail wasn't entirely of her own will. I'm still trying to figure that stuff out...


If you believe like I do that she is a con artist/gold digger, then it isn't a stretch to say that she would ignore the threat t=for then end goal, in fact its more than likely. Some types of people will look past threats for the big pay off, A bank robber, a person cheating in old mob controlled Vegas, a mobster skimming off the top, all these are exampes of people thinking that they can get away with it. I truly believe that Shae is one of these people.

I believe that Tywin got to Shea after the wedding breakfast and before Tyrion sent her away. He made her an offer and she accepted, thinking she could play both sides. When Tyrion sent her away she let Bronn put her on the ship then left to the tower of the hand to start to play Tywin. If she was threatened she would have tried to explain herself to Tyrion and not got straight for the knife.

Steppricon wrote:The love for Tyrion was obviously there in the show I found, it was just handled poorly in the end.


When watching the show I would agree with you, but in retrospect I can see that it was an act. I think that she started to feel something for Tyrion, but when comes down to it she will pick herself every time. In the show she stated multiple times that he loved Sansa, I think that she said that she would die for her, but when push came to shove she threw Sansa under the bus. Word are wind.

Phoenix wrote:
The fight between Brienne and the Hound was awesome and one of the most brutal fights scenes I ever saw. The bite played a big part in the fight. If you notice the hound was crushing her at first, but as the fight went on it became even then she took charge and destroyed him.

I agree that I think the bite slowed the Hound down, but I realised this retrospectively and I sort of wish they'd had some throwaway line to remind us that the wound is still an issue for him. The fighting was brutal but I was surprised while watching at how well Brienne held her own (I mean, the Hound is pretty well accomplished with a sword). I realised later that the bite would have had a big role in that but it's easy to miss/forget it.


Steppricon wrote:And I really just didn't see how the hounds neck wound was a factor. No visible signs of fever or infection, like brienne's fight with Jaime, he was obviously not himself, I think the producers wanted Brienne to win a fair fight, and if that was the case, we didn't need the bite at all in my opinion


The throwaway line was in ep 8, Arya told the hound that she should have let her burn the bite, and that he was moving slower. That line stood out to me since I was looking for anything that foreshadowed his death scene. The bite happened because the show wanted to have Brienne v Hound. If it didn't happen then she would have another fight scene before she meets Lady Stoneheart. Also so show that the hound could make short work out of the two that gave Brienne so much trouble.

I really liked this episode the only big thing I would change is Jaime telling Tyrion. That scene is very important and I can't imagine a reason not to have it. It cut all Lanister ties for Tyrion, and he loses everything in a few moments. Very powerful stuff, plus a foundation for his spiral into what he becomes in next season.

I like the Bran stuff, I thought that the Skeletons were done well, and we finally got to see Meera in action. We also got an answer to the Jojen paste theory. I will say that a small gripe is how BR looked.My expectations were raised from the Emmy submission, and it fell way short. I can remember if BR was surrounded my human bones in the book. If he was, what is the explanation? Could it be that BR and the children have some darker motives? Could the Skeletons at the entrance be there to keep them in to protect the world from them? If it was obvious in the books please forgive me, all the Bran stuff is very fuzzy and I cant wait till I get to it again in my first reread.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Webswinger wrote:I like the Bran stuff, I thought that the Skeletons were done well, and we finally got to see Meera in action. We also got an answer to the Jojen paste theory. I will say that a small gripe is how BR looked.My expectations were raised from the Emmy submission, and it fell way short. I can remember if BR was surrounded my human bones in the book. If he was, what is the explanation? Could it be that BR and the children have some darker motives? Could the Skeletons at the entrance be there to keep them in to protect the world from them? If it was obvious in the books please forgive me, all the Bran stuff is very fuzzy and I cant wait till I get to it again in my first reread.


Yes, the cave has skulls and bones in the book too. The bones of long dead Children, various animals, even a couple Giants, as well as other bones Bran does not recognize.

I was quite disappointed by the Three-Eyed Crows appearance, I think it was my most anticipated moment of the series to date. He should have one glowing red eye, for a start. Some actual prosthetics would be nice, visible ones that give the image that he is permanently linked to the tree. I would be able to forgive the lack of corpsy skin and voice if only he had that red eye and the roots growing in his body. I can only hope they step it up next year, because he currently looks to me like an underwhelming, kindly old man stuck in a bush.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:26 pm

Vaxis wrote:
Webswinger wrote:I like the Bran stuff, I thought that the Skeletons were done well, and we finally got to see Meera in action. We also got an answer to the Jojen paste theory. I will say that a small gripe is how BR looked.My expectations were raised from the Emmy submission, and it fell way short. I can remember if BR was surrounded my human bones in the book. If he was, what is the explanation? Could it be that BR and the children have some darker motives? Could the Skeletons at the entrance be there to keep them in to protect the world from them? If it was obvious in the books please forgive me, all the Bran stuff is very fuzzy and I cant wait till I get to it again in my first reread.


Yes, the cave has skulls and bones in the book too. The bones of long dead Children, various animals, even a couple Giants, as well as other bones Bran does not recognize.

I was quite disappointed by the Three-Eyed Crows appearance, I think it was my most anticipated moment of the series to date. He should have one glowing red eye, for a start. Some actual prosthetics would be nice, visible ones that give the image that he is permanently linked to the tree. I would be able to forgive the lack of corpsy skin and voice if only he had that red eye and the roots growing in his body. I can only hope they step it up next year, because he currently looks to me like an underwhelming, kindly old man stuck in a bush.


In my head it was more like him sitting on a throne of roots, with the trees woven into him makind it hard to discern where his limbs started and ended, this guy just looks perched up and uncomfortable with a robe that's in pretty good shape considering how long he's been there. I just was hoping for something more than what we got.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:34 pm

I think I've complained enough in this thread, I'll try to say more of what I enjoyed and appreciated from now on
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby McDougal » Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:38 pm

The shows portrayal of Bloodraven is very....Merlin? (recent series or older tv films) or just generally fantasy heavy. I mean it's just some old dude hanging awkwardly in a tree! That tv scene could have been right out of Monty python. I half expected a cackle

It wasn't very clear whereas the book version paints quite a vivid picture of the lord in ruined finery sitting on a throne (it was a throne right?) with roots burrowing through him, add to that the red eye, the birthmark. It paints a picture.

Sure at the end of the day Bloodraven is just an old man in a tree, there to teach the young apprentice, but he's George's version of a fantasy trope which inevitably brings something new to the table as well.

And I think the show didn't capture that at all. Re reading the comments before I realise I'm not really adding anything apart from my own take on things.
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