The children (show spoilers)

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The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:49 am

There was a lot to like about the episode, but I was quite underwhelmed by the episode as a whole since they misplayed a few big events. The shows pattern of making stannis look like a douche continues, I don't think it's the actor, I think it's bad direction. I did like the funerals at the wall though. I also enjoyed the bran scene, the wights looked great and had a sword and sandal film feel to them, and jojen's death was powerful, leaf was also a great addition, she doesn't have a "dirty little girl" feel to her, she looks almost like I had imagined. Bloodraven's reveal was nice too, although, he looks a little too healthy, it would've been nice having some roots and branches going through his face maybe. Brienne vs the hound was a nice change I thought, but the fight drug out a bit longer than necessary, and arya leaving the hound was powerful. Kings landing was where the episode really fell flat for me, cersei looked crazy enough to build into season 5's inevitable downward spiral, but we didn't get the tysha reveal, the lack of dialogue between Tyrion and shae was very lazy in my opinion, but the tywin/Tyrion exchange was great. I liked arya'a departure for bravos. But my biggest complaint is the lack of lady stoneheart, that chapter at the end of storm was absolutely shocking, and it's omission from this episode was equally shocking to me, the show really needed that jaw dropper to set up for next season, and hbo really let me down
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby LawHawk » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:44 am

I agree completely about the lack of Lady Stoneheart. If it's true she's going to be in Season 5 to give it more "water cooler" stuff to work with, I understand, but it's tough to not have that for the next 10 months. Years from now people will "binge" and watch seasons 4 and 5 in one weekend and it won't matter to them.

I don't have a problem with Bloodraven's appearance. I was quite worried that it was going to look too much like something from Jim Henson. I love "Labyrinth," but it would feel out of place to have that type of character in Game of Thrones. I think the way they did it was just right - enough tree, but not too much. And by the way - we didn't really get a great look at him. It may be that when we get a closer look, we see more tree details.

The one that really kills me is no Tysha reveal. I had been looking forward to that ever since we first saw how great Peter Dinklage and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau were together. Even without considering Tyrion's motivation moving forward, it should have been a really great scene.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:05 am

LawHawk wrote:I agree completely about the lack of Lady Stoneheart. If it's true she's going to be in Season 5 to give it more "water cooler" stuff to work with, I understand, but it's tough to not have that for the next 10 months. Years from now people will "binge" and watch seasons 4 and 5 in one weekend and it won't matter to them.

I don't have a problem with Bloodraven's appearance. I was quite worried that it was going to look too much like something from Jim Henson. I love "Labyrinth," but it would feel out of place to have that type of character in Game of Thrones. I think the way they did it was just right - enough tree, but not too much. And by the way - we didn't really get a great look at him. It may be that when we get a closer look, we see more tree details.

The one that really kills me is no Tysha reveal. I had been looking forward to that ever since we first saw how great Peter Dinklage and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau were together. Even without considering Tyrion's motivation moving forward, it should have been a really great scene.


Did you have a problem with the Tyrion/shae interaction? I mean, no frickin' dialogue?!
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:36 am

I hope you guys don't mind if I copy this in here from the other thread.

I am very sorry to have to say this. But I am pretty disappointed with what I thought was going to be the finest hour of the show. The finale had some great scenes, but huge changes that were quite a let-down.

PROS:

- Stannis charging, Jon meeting with Mance, the funeral at Castle Black... I loved all of the Wall stuff. It's got an exciting future, waiting to see these characters interact.

- The Hound vs Brienne was harrowing and fresh new material. Arya departs at last after a scene with the Hound that felt to me very much from the books.

- I like the Dany scene. Not much else to say but that I liked it. The dragons look great as always.

- Cersei and Qyburn was quite good, Qyburn really creeped me out with his comments. More Lannister scenes followed, which would never ever have happened with book Cersei, but they were powerfully acted nonetheless.

CONS:

- The skeleton wights, while being very cool visually, were somewhat comical and not truly frightening. It got worse when Leaf used magic lightning fireballs to save the day. Meera killing Jojen was tragic and emotional, at least.

- Bloodraven was an enormous disappointment. I thought they would at least attempt some amount of prosthetics and CGI with him, but not even a tiny bit. No corpse look, no one red eye, no roots growing through his body and face. Just an old man sitting on a tree.

- Not a hint of the truth about Tysha. Jaime and Tyrion part on happy terms instead of the depressingly sad way of the book. Tyrion is whitewashed further, when he is forced to kill Shae out of self-defence, afterwards apologizing to her dead body. The Tywin scene is okay, but loses a lot of its power without the Tysha reveal. Varys boards the ship with Tyrion, clearly set to replace a character next season.

- No Stoneheart. I have no more to say on that front.

Overall, though I loved the content at the Wall, the episode fell flat for me, and that's mostly because I was really looking forward to the changing character of Tyrion as he goes down a dark road. I was also incredibly excited for Bloodraven and Leaf, which looked to me like a bad joke.The removal of Stoneheart just added more vitriol into my system. I will need a long while to recover from that disappointment.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:31 am

I didn't mind the lack of dialogue in the Shae scene. That's actually how it's written. He doesn't give her a chance to speak and I think that could have ramifications for his character in the books and the show. He'll never truly know the circumstances for her being there. When read that part I definitely wanted to hear her explanation but I appreciated the show doing it the same way. Her reaching for the knife, making Tyrion's actions self defence I suppose changes his decision but I don't have a huge problem with that. I'll have to think on that a bit more.

I just really want to hear from David and Dan why he went to Tywin's room. He didn't get a weapon until after he finds and kills Shae. What would he have done if he just entered the room and Tywin was sitting or laying there alone? They would have had a short conversation, Tywin would have dominated him and probably called for the guards.

Tyrion and Jaime parting on good terms also has huge implications for what happens going forward. In the books Tyrion is completely done with the Lannisters but now he still has Jaime on his side. I like their relationship but in the books Tyrion lost everything in a few moments and in the show he did not.

As for everyone's reaction towards Stannis, I'm starting to agree that show Stannis hasn't been done justice. I'm not a huge Stannis fan in the books so I guess that's why I hadn't really noticed. I agree with what Ashaya said in last week's podcast. They could have made last weeks episode 10 minutes longer and have Jon and Mance and then Stannis coming to saving the day at the end of the episode, giving him his hero moment after a VERY lacklustre season for him, but instead his actions were buried in this jam-packed episode.

Spoiler: show
Thinking about the Stannis portrayal a bit more. It makes me think that there is really no chance at all for Stannis to be King or even really a major factor in the final events. GRRM has told D&D the broad strokes ending and if Stannis were to come out on top then there's no way they would portray him like this. Just my opinion but I don't think there are many show-only viewers who are cheering for Stannis.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:35 am

Any thoughts on the season as a whole? Where does season 4 rank with the other 3? Content wise, it may be the best since season 1, but it really lost momentum towards the end, it would seem that a lot of the filler from earlier episodes could have been omitted to have the big endings. Drop the assault on the mutineers for Jaime coming clean about tysha, drop the simple cousin scene for lady stoneheart reveal, and get rid of arya and the hound vs rorge and biter (since the neck wound obviously meant nothing) for more time with Tyrion and shae. Had those things been included, this would have easily been the best season, but there omissions I feel left book readers scratching their heads, and unsullied viewers not knowing any better. Overall I give the season an 8 out of 10, for reference I have season 1 as a 9, season 2 as a 6, and season 3 as a 7.5.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:45 am

DarrenT wrote:I didn't mind the lack of dialogue in the Shae scene. That's actually how it's written. He doesn't give her a chance to speak and I think that could have ramifications for his character in the books and the show. He'll never truly know the circumstances for her being there. When read that part I definitely wanted to hear her explanation but I appreciated the show doing it the same way. Her reaching for the knife, making Tyrion's actions self defence I suppose changes his decision but I don't have a huge problem with that. I'll have to think on that a bit more.

I just really want to hear from David and Dan why he went to Tywin's room. He didn't get a weapon until after he finds and kills Shae. What would he have done if he just entered the room and Tywin was sitting or laying there alone? They would have had a short conversation, Tywin would have dominated him and probably called for the guards.

Tyrion and Jaime parting on good terms also has huge implications for what happens going forward. In the books Tyrion is completely done with the Lannisters but now he still has Jaime on his side. I like their relationship but in the books Tyrion lost everything in a few moments and in the show he did not.

As for everyone's reaction towards Stannis, I'm starting to agree that show Stannis hasn't been done justice. I'm not a huge Stannis fan in the books so I guess that's why I hadn't really noticed. I agree with what Ashaya said in last week's podcast. They could have made last weeks episode 10 minutes longer and have Jon and Mance and then Stannis coming to saving the day at the end of the episode, giving him his hero moment after a VERY lacklustre season for him, but instead his actions were buried in this jam-packed episode.

Spoiler: show
Thinking about the Stannis portrayal a bit more. It makes me think that there is really no chance at all for Stannis to be King or even really a major factor in the final events. GRRM has told D&D the broad strokes ending and if Stannis were to come out on top then there's no way they would portray him like this. Just my opinion but I don't think there are many show-only viewers who are cheering for Stannis.


I respectfully disagree on the Tyrion/shae scene. If you remember, when Tyrion finds her, he says "were you expecting someone taller?" We then have the exchange about whether she ever liked him, to which she replies "more than anything my giant of lannister" shae tells him that tywin scares her, the show's portrayal of a self defense move I believe clearly missed the mark, but perhaps that's just my opinion.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:01 am

Steppricon wrote:
DarrenT wrote:I didn't mind the lack of dialogue in the Shae scene. That's actually how it's written. He doesn't give her a chance to speak and I think that could have ramifications for his character in the books and the show. He'll never truly know the circumstances for her being there. When read that part I definitely wanted to hear her explanation but I appreciated the show doing it the same way. Her reaching for the knife, making Tyrion's actions self defence I suppose changes his decision but I don't have a huge problem with that. I'll have to think on that a bit more.

I just really want to hear from David and Dan why he went to Tywin's room. He didn't get a weapon until after he finds and kills Shae. What would he have done if he just entered the room and Tywin was sitting or laying there alone? They would have had a short conversation, Tywin would have dominated him and probably called for the guards.

Tyrion and Jaime parting on good terms also has huge implications for what happens going forward. In the books Tyrion is completely done with the Lannisters but now he still has Jaime on his side. I like their relationship but in the books Tyrion lost everything in a few moments and in the show he did not.

As for everyone's reaction towards Stannis, I'm starting to agree that show Stannis hasn't been done justice. I'm not a huge Stannis fan in the books so I guess that's why I hadn't really noticed. I agree with what Ashaya said in last week's podcast. They could have made last weeks episode 10 minutes longer and have Jon and Mance and then Stannis coming to saving the day at the end of the episode, giving him his hero moment after a VERY lacklustre season for him, but instead his actions were buried in this jam-packed episode.

Spoiler: show
Thinking about the Stannis portrayal a bit more. It makes me think that there is really no chance at all for Stannis to be King or even really a major factor in the final events. GRRM has told D&D the broad strokes ending and if Stannis were to come out on top then there's no way they would portray him like this. Just my opinion but I don't think there are many show-only viewers who are cheering for Stannis.


I respectfully disagree on the Tyrion/shae scene. If you remember, when Tyrion finds her, he says "were you expecting someone taller?" We then have the exchange about whether she ever liked him, to which she replies "more than anything my giant of lannister" shae tells him that tywin scares her, the show's portrayal of a self defense move I believe clearly missed the mark, but perhaps that's just my opinion.


You're right about that scene. I just re-read that chapter. Good call. I guess when reading it I just really wanted a full explanation and we didn't get it. In the book I felt intentionally unsatisfied, if that makes any sense. I feel like GRRM doesn't want us to know for sure, at least not yet. Having reconsidered this, yes I feel like the show missed out here again. Especially since Shae in show is MUCH more fleshed out than in the books. It didn't seem like she was there against her will but that is a very real possibility in the show and now I guess we'll never know.

Also, in the Tyrion-Jaime scene in the books when Tyrion says "Thank you brother, for my life." thats when Jaime confesses about Tysha. In the show when Tyrion says this, Jaime pauses for a moment and then just nods his head. I don't know what to think of that but I found it interesting.
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:12 am

To derrenT,

Yes, a fleshed out show shae, with a rushed resolution, not satisfying at all. Why spend so much time establishing her as a jilted lover, only to have her final actions be a self preservationist? It just didn't make sense to me. And with Jaime and Tyrion, I guess since the show nearly succeeded as fully assassinating Jaimie's character with the scene In the sept, they didn't want to harm his character further with Tyrion being contemptful after hearing the truth about tysha
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Re: The children (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:37 pm

Steppricon wrote:To derrenT,

Yes, a fleshed out show shae, with a rushed resolution, not satisfying at all. Why spend so much time establishing her as a jilted lover, only to have her final actions be a self preservationist? It just didn't make sense to me. And with Jaime and Tyrion, I guess since the show nearly succeeded as fully assassinating Jaimie's character with the scene In the sept, they didn't want to harm his character further with Tyrion being contemptful after hearing the truth about tysha


Yes you're right. I do think Shae in the show truly loved Tyrion but then this scene strongly implies she never did and was just using him for wealth. But if this is the case why did she refuse Varys' diamonds? I think book Shae would have jumped at that offer but in the show she wanted to stay with Tyrion. GRRM has said in an interview that book Shae never loved Tyrion. I wonder what D and D would say about show Shae.
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