S04E09 (show spoilers)

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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:19 am

10 out of 10, best episode of the season, and possibly of the series. For the first time since the show has aired I have ZERO complaints. I loved the Sam and gilly scenes, the cowardice of Janos, the exchange between Jon and alliser, the wisdom of Aemon, pyp and grenn's last moments, Edd's command. I literally enjoyed every minute of it. But there's 2 things that really jump out. First, grenn holding the gate. Wow, what a "f*ck yeah!" Moment, even though it is his final moment, it's so moving to see him rallying his brothers against something that looks so insurmountable, bravo! Second, the crane shot in the courtyard. This shot, while not as long as the True Detective continuous shot, was equally powerful, it conveyed the frenetic nature of the battle. I'm so pleased with the way this battle was handled, I can even forgive stannis not showing up.
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:18 pm

As to the question about Aemon's backstory, it could just be an insignificant detail to flesh out this man who could have been King, but when he was talking about the woman who tried to seduce him I couldn't help think of Olenna. We know she was betrothed to a Targaryen and wasn't pleased with him but is this a possible connection? I have no idea but that's where my mind went.

I agree that I wish Jon was being sent to kill Mance rather than deciding for himself. Jon is disgusted with the prospect of killing Mance while under the protection of an envoy. It will end up being a moot point but for Jon to even consider this on his own is not consistent with his personality.
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby McDougal » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:09 pm

^^ I thought of Oleanna straight away as well, but the age difference and the fact that she didn't like her Targ make it seem more unlikely in my mind? I know his love might not have been returned but still.

And I think I should just completely sever in my mind any connection between 'Jon Snow' and 'Junn Snurrr' It might make it easier.

I was really looking forward to the Lord Commander election being in ep 10, as to quote Kit Harrington it is such a satisfying ending to Jon's story arc. They might hash it in anyway? It would be rushed and a bit odd to the show fans but it wouldn't be the weirdest decision they've made!
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby DornishWhino » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:05 pm

While I love the idea of Aemon getting it on with the queen of thorns, I have to agree that this line was more of a build for Sir Piggy's story...Was anyone else cheering for Sam when he finally kissed Gilly?
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:18 pm

Yeah, I think it's just background for Aemon, there can't have been any marriage arranged with him because the character in Olenna's story was a man that she was to wed, but Aemon was off to the Citadel by the time he was 8 or 9. He can't have been betrothed at any point after that.
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:26 pm

DornishWhino wrote:While I love the idea of Aemon getting it on with the queen of thorns, I have to agree that this line was more of a build for Sir Piggy's story...Was anyone else cheering for Sam when he finally kissed Gilly?


I definitely was cheering for Sam and gilly, this is as genuine a romance ASOIAF has to offer
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:43 am

I wasn't sure if the Aemon story was something that came up in Dunk and Egg and was a homage to novella-readers (or which I'm not yet one myself, though I really should read them!). It sounds like it's a show creation though, which is an interesting addition. Doesn't he say the gods tested him three times? (As in, three times he was tempted to leave the NT). I can't remember if that was in the book or show or both... But perhaps that's part of one of his temptations?

Overall I thought the episode was visually stunning, and the soundtrack was amazing; really built the mood. The scythe and giant arrows were a surprise; even if the scythe is a little unrealistic I don't care it was freaking cool! I did wonder though - why would you not have Ghost roaming free right from the off?! Send in the direwolf!

I liked how they showed Alliser as a capable leader. If this were alot of other shows or most movies he'd be incompetent because he's an antagonist but I loved his "i hate you and you hate me so lets survive this and go on hating eachother" speech.

Me too! One of my friends was annoyed that they "glorified his character", but he is actually quite good at what he does, he just has an attitude/personality problem. When you're backed in a corner some people can surprise you (look at Grenn and Sam!). I loved his moments with Jon.

I had a horrible feeling earlier this season that Pyp would be killed in this battle. Anyone not absolutely essential to the conclusion of ADFS is probably expendable, and it gave the episode a much more emotional resonance. Grenn falls into the same boat. I'm glad that at least Ed's still alive!

Spoiler: show
I too was expecting Stannis this episode
, so am a little disappointed that that has been held off for next week since that leaves less room for a couple of other things I was hoping to see! Namely SH, Bran's story, and Tywin. I really can't wait for SH (and I agree I hope they don't sex her up!) but I wonder if that would be too much for one finale? Bran's story seemed a given from the start with an episode title like The Children, and the Event with Tywin simply has to happen, it would be such a big thing to end season 4 on. I had also wondered if Dany learns next episode that
Spoiler: show
Drogon supposedly ate a child
, because that would fit into the "Children" thing too.

It was announced some weeks back that episode 10 is to be 66 minutes.

Good news!

My wife couldnt even watch most of it...she kept screaming and jumping...telling me that I was a horrible person for laughing at the violence...it's not a fairytale marriage

:lol: :lol: I have a friend with the same issue, she covered her eyes at Oberyn's death last week, but this episode featured many out-of-the-blue attacks, like knives in the eye and arrows flying everywhere and she was torn between wanting to follow what was happening and not wanting to see the voilence.


Sheesh, sorry for the essay!!
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:00 am

clover wrote:Hey new user here. I've been a fan of the podcast for awhile and have been enjoying reading everyone's discussions here on this forum and decided to join in so I could ask everyone's opinion on something in this episode that stayed with me after I watched it the other night.

The scene where Aemon and Sam are talking and Aemon refers to a lover, do you feel that it was a throwaway line added by the show writers to help Aemon and Sam connect in that scene. Or was Aemon's lover who succeeded, maybe "successful" enough to have potentially given Aemon a line of successors. I'm leaning towards it being a throw away line, but Aemon to me seems to be an odd character to randomly have the show give an additional non-book back story to. Does anyone else have any thought's on Aemon's scene with Sam. It seems not too many people are talking about it.


Welcome to the boards!

I too found myself wondering about that, even if show Aemon differs from book Aemon it's not out of the realm of possibility for him to have fell in love with someone during his life so from a general perspective it's interesting and need not be a throw-away line although I do sort of feel it won't be scrutinized or necessary to be be known on the show to Sam but for the purposes of the scene in question it adds the element of this unlikely wisdom from an elder that Sam at first sort of dismisses or questions the validity of. I thought it was a nice recurring theme as Aziz pointed out in the broadcast, of Aemon stating how love is the death of duty and the sort of different ways that plays out in so many characters' arcs and specifically how it might now play out in Sam and Gilly's. It finally gave their relationship some meat for how much screen time they get and all the false posturing about the feelings simmering within at least from Sam's POV. So I mean it would add some further depth to Aemon's character and story for show-only watchers but I don't think it will have any relevance to the previous history of Aemon's younger age that would eventually conflict with what George might release or has about the specifics of Aemon's life, it's vague enough not to hurt any character development we have yet to have seen about Aemon. If the show is ok with erasing a whole generation (Jahaerys) then the deviation must be intended (one would hope anyway) to be vague enough not to matter either way, the point is to drive home that he chose duty throughout his whole life and on much bigger decisions than some that Sam are dealing with, who had tempted him would be nice to know but in the grand-scheme of things it doesn't matter if she remains unnamed. I think there's plenty of distant Targaryens about the world that we don't have to hope Aemon had some children of his own around too, although it is an interesting thought as far as would they have been good rulers using his duty over love mantra, etc? I don't know if we'll ever get that much detail of the history about these previous characters that existed before the current story like an Aemon, it'd be nice though, it'd make his character a little richer but it doesn't really matter to me, I like Aemon for the sacrifices he made, the character he has already shown the realm, that he's embodied his whole life it would seem, having a child wandering around would almost taint his legend a bit, because I don't see Aemon as being that kind of Father, he'd have raised 'em if he had any! :shock:
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:48 am

As far as the episode in general goes... I thought it was very good. Overall I thought the pacing was good, showing both pre-battle preparation both of tools of war but also of the mental side of going to war and how it affects people differently. I thought it was a very interesting choice to show Ser Alliser as being quite adequate as acting commander (thereby proxy a Commander) and appreciated the revelation he gave to Jon about how not supporting him on his idea was made out of personal feelings rather than military strategy (at least it appears to me that he was admitting not just the mistake of not sealing the wall but the manner of which he used to make the choice)... well done and is really a type of moment that happens a lot more than we'd all like to believe. I remember serving under guys I didn't really like at all, our Batallion Commander was a Lt. Colonel when I was sent to Desert Storm, I 'liked' him from a leadership point of view, he made good speeches that roused your beliefs and psyched you up, he was also a very smart and capable leader tactically, etc... but of course there were Sergeants and a few Lieutenants and even a Captain or two that didn't particularly like... but the point being that when the fit hits the shan you all operate as a team and put aside your personal feelings, you can't very well hate-on someone if your dead! But I thought that was a scene that happens a lot but isn't shown a lot so I thought it very well done.

The Ygritte death was pretty much so telegraphed even my grand-niece could've told you Olly was going to shoot her... but still a pretty well done 'scene' and a touching 'one last look at one another' moment for Jon and her as her life slipped away... sad times. I liked Ygritte, I'll miss her...

I liked the battle scenes for the most part and yes I agree with Sean of House Beard that it looked like a good 20-30 Night's Watchmen died which is a pretty significant amount but the action looked pretty well choreographed and the 360 degree pan really added a sense of the scope of the battle as a whole. I was expecting to see something with respect to a sabotoging of the switch-back stair, some sort of secondary goal of the Wildlings on the south side of the Wall, or even to gain control of the winch, but that didn't manifest. I did like the fighting between Jon and Styr although again just a small issue to me but Jon again gets disarmed, I know the fire affected his grip but I'm a little concerned on the show's portrayal of Jon as a swordsman. He ultimately 'wins' and as Aziz pointed out he even uses a lesson learned from Karl in this engagement by spitting in Styr's face. I really felt it was sort of Hollywood'ish for Jon to not have been gutted after having his head smashed on a freaking anvil for crying out loud... but I mean the fight itself was pretty good, good acting and all that I just wonder sometimes if Jon's prowess as a Swordsman is really on-par with any average troop you'd likely come across. It's like he's a god to people who have no sword training and a weaker opponent to all of the guys he's getting in sword fights with and I think there should be more significance to his training at play than what's shown is I'm getting at.

I also agreed with Aziz in that I wished they'd have shown just a little bit more of Ghost. He nommed on one guy. One. Of course we can guess that he nommed on more but show us a little flurry of a few different attacks. It just feels empty to have this moment where they risk injury to clear the way for Sam to free Ghost, and when Sam succeeds, Ghost rushes out and kills one dude, which is probably fewer men than they had to kill in trying to get him free... /sigh. Less in not more in this instance, it would have really made his impact feel more substantial, as it should... but whatever.

I really like how well they've done the Giants. The scenes with them were really interesting to me and I kind of wished we'd have seen the fight for the inner gate that Grenn died in defending, didn't have to be complicated, just thought it would've been a powerful scene to show as well as good scene to depict as far as having to fight hand-to-hand melee combat with a giant.

I see some have jumped into talking about what we'll see in the last episode and what will get wrapped up more than what but I'll just wait until the show airs to talk about it. I expect it to touch a lot of plotlines so I expect a lot of scenery changes but I do feel there's no need to show the Bolton storyline anymore at this point, nor really the Greyjoys either, I suspect that they can resolve Balon just as easily in beginning of a new season that's surely to have a bit more Greyjoy action than previous seasons (unless some plots are cut out altogether) than it is to have him in one scene of this episode which really look out of place by itself.
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Re: S04E09 (show spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:05 am

I really felt it was sort of Hollywood'ish for Jon to not have been gutted after having his head smashed on a freaking anvil for crying out loud...

Oh my gosh yes! He should have been knocked out, or at the very least lost a few teeth. I find it disappointing when they Hollywood-ise those sorts of things, because for the most part (certainly the books) it's fairly realistic with the portrayal that injuries have consequences. I'm sick of seeing intense fight scenes where the characters simply walk away with barely a limp.
Spoiler: show
We may well see one such example with Sandor next week...
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