S04E08 (show spoilers)

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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:46 pm

A very minor quibble but I missed a particular line by Tyrion:

*Oberyn drives his spear into Gregors chest*

Tyrion: "I'm feeling more innocent by the second."

Great episode overall, though a few scenes fell flat for me. The ending was everything I could ever have hoped for.
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:18 pm

Vaxis wrote:A very minor quibble but I missed a particular line by Tyrion:

*Oberyn drives his spear into Gregors chest*

Tyrion: "I'm feeling more innocent by the second."

Great episode overall, though a few scenes fell flat for me. The ending was everything I could ever have hoped for.


Ya that would have been good to have! Another thing missing for me was Tyrion discussing the ramifications of Oberyn losing and Dorne's reaction. I can't remember the exact quote but he says something along the lines of

"It would almost be worth dying to know the problems it would cause my Lord father."

Now that I think about it, thats what he and Jaime should have been discussing instead of beetles.
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:55 pm

DarrenT wrote:
Vaxis wrote:A very minor quibble but I missed a particular line by Tyrion:

*Oberyn drives his spear into Gregors chest*

Tyrion: "I'm feeling more innocent by the second."

Great episode overall, though a few scenes fell flat for me. The ending was everything I could ever have hoped for.


Ya that would have been good to have! Another thing missing for me was Tyrion discussing the ramifications of Oberyn losing and Dorne's reaction. I can't remember the exact quote but he says something along the lines of

"It would almost be worth dying to know the problems it would cause my Lord father."

Now that I think about it, thats what he and Jaime should have been discussing instead of beetles.

The whole dungeon scene killed me, pointless dialogue
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:15 am

I do agree with the beetles scene... I think they were going for, GRRM (or "the gods", or whoever pulls the strings) is the guy smashing our favourite characters? And we try to figure out the purpose of all these dead husks and we just don't know why the all suffer like that? One of my friends, after Oberyn bought the farm, said "well what was the point of all that then?!" and someone else said "I think that's what they were going for with the beetles". But as has been said, it was a really strange scene and considering the length of the speech it just didn't seem to do much. Has Tyrion been secretly brooding on beetles for the last four seasons?

This was the single most visceral and emotional scene yet for me. God, that really went right through me.


It went right through Oberyn too. Bah dum, tish!

As an aside, why has Sansa suddenly morphed into Maleficent?


:lol: Goth Sansa. Sansa 2.0.

Speaking of Sansa, it seems incredibly slack of Littlefinger to have left everything up to whether or not Sansa will testify for or against him. This has been a bit of a theme this season, and often it can come down to simplifying the storytelling, but this seems a bit bigger than neglecting to put Sansa's hood up. Sure he had no singer-scapegoat, and he could have tried to convince the Lords (and Lady) of the Vale that Sansa was lying, but if Sansa told the actual truth then I'm inclined to believe that the Lords would have a few trust issues with Petyr. It just seems like such a massive loose thread in his plan, and not keeping in his character at all. If he'd had time to coach Sansa on her story beforehand then I might buy it, but he clearly hadn't had that opportunity yet, and he seemed genuinely worried that Sansa might screw everything up for him.
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:15 am

We get hints of Sansa embracing the dark side in the books, the show seems to be rapidly darkening her character with this last episode, she will be littlefingers downfall, it's just interesting to see on screen her effect on petyr
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:41 am

I tend to agree with the previous posts on this episode, some things were very well done, some thing's not so much.

I don't like dialogue that takes up that much time (Tyrion and Jaime) only to end with the same question we we're posed in the beginning. At least give SOMEONE'S opinion on what they think it was supposed to mean. I was thinking wow this could b a pretty cool scene if there's some odd lesson here to be learned.... aww nope, what a tease.

As far as Sansa and Littlefinger... I kind of figured it'd go that way, afterall there's no Marillion to scapegoat so they had to do something different and you know, a poster mentioned that LF didn't have time to coach Sansa; I'm actually not so positive about that. No guards came a running after Lysa flew so it's quite plausible that LF had time to say ok look we're both dead if we don't hatch a story, here's how it goes...

Her whole speech, even beginning with I'm sorry Lord Petyr but I have to tell the truth just made me think that they'd already played out how the inquiry was going to go. Just my take on it, it could be that she was just going with it but I doubt it.

And of course, the scene that will go down in GOT glory forever...

I really liked the fight overall, I did agree that while the choreography was good it wasn't as good from a choreographing of Oberyn and Gregor fighting each other together sense. I thought Oberyn's moves were well done it just seemed to me that Gregor did nothing but lunge, swipe and hack, I suppose that might not be so far out of the realm of reason but I was hoping for just a li'l bit better.

Every single time Oberyn spoke his li'l spiele (and don't get me wrong I liked it, very powerful) I just kept hearing: My name is Inigo Montoya, you kil'd my father, prepare to die! Was I the only one? :P

I agree with the other post that said it was just a bit too one-sided compared to the books, but I didn't really mind the diversion there, it really made the scene very powerfully delivered. I liked how we he was getting a li'l more angry every blow he landed and ultimately he just got too caught up in delivering that humility. Of course it was supposed to happen the way it did so there's no real point in going into the fact that he should've just stood there or even put another hole in Gregor's chest and not worried about this precious confession, but my gawd, that was epic, the eye-gouging was brutal and looked pretty damn realistic and poor Ellaria's scream was about as realistic as it gets, man that would be pretty hard to see.

I had a slight complaint about Tywin declaring for Gregor but of course we know that has to happen too, but I do wonder, has there not been thought given to what happens if both combatants die? Is it a draw? Do they have to fight for the truth again and find new Champions? Is it strictly just who dies first? Poor Tyrion was robbed! :p
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby LarsPenry » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:20 am

There were some issues though, as somebody who really appreciates great cinematic fight scenes, I was appalled by this one. I could barely tell what was happening, there was no intimacy to it, like Bob Anderson said to Geoffrey Rush, 'Just because it gets faster doesn't mean it's better. You know that as an actor. It's the beats in between.' And I think that's one hundred percent true. Too often I see movies think that fast editing or shaky cam = intense, edge of your seat action.

When he called out Tywin like that... It was so dumb. I mean really? You're going to overtly call out Tywin fucking Lannister like that, in front of essentially everybody? The nuance and subtlety has really been lost.

Meanwhile Sansa has mystically morphed into Maleficent overnight it would seem. Similarly, Littlefinger has magically lost 50 IQ points.
Ugh... I hate how they just throw things in because they serve the here and now with no thought given to its context within the world or that particular character's arc.

Rant over. Overall this was a good episode, the battle wasn't very good, but the rawness of Oberyn's death... I've never been disgusted by anything on the show before, people were going crazy over TRW and Talisa's death but it was meh for me... But this was horrific, the teeth, the scream... My God
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Heartsbane » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:51 am

DarrenT wrote:Sending Gilly to Molestown was the height of stupidity in my opinion, and a decision that Sam and Jon would not have made. Sam is afraid that Gilly may be raped by Nights Watch brothers at the Wall where she is under protection so he sends her to a freakin brothel where Nights Watch and others go for debauchery. And Jon is on board with this even though he knows there's a Wildling raiding party south of the Wall causing shit? This is a show invention and one I think they did to cause a bit more tension, which is fine, but it comes at the expense of character's doing something extremely stupid which I don't think they'd do.


I don't think Jon had a hand in that decision, seeing how's he's not Lord Greasy Hair Emo Commander yet. But I actually like how they changed that for the show. I think it was supposed to portray that Sam may be smart, but he's not wise. In terms of Gilly's being sent to be a washerwoman in Molestown, I think it's a better illustration of women having little agency in the hands of men than, "Fuck 'em till their dead, boys!" And it shows that as sweet and sensitive as Sam is, he's still going to act like a man. He's in charge of Gilly's fate, not her.

I never thought the Hound and Arya would make it to the Vale but when they did and Sandor announces that this is Arya Stark the captain of the Bloody Gate doesn't even balk at that? A potential high-born hostage to trade with the Lannisters or a chance to save a member of their Lord's (Robert Arryn) family? If they are allowed to leave (which I assume they will be) this makes no sense to me. The Hound did grimace at his shoulder wound so that is going to play out very soon but still, this story has been stretched to its limits.


I didn't realize that the guard was nobility until I listened to the podcast, so you're right, it makes little sense. It might have been a decision to edit out stuff for time.

I had thought the guard at the gate was just some dude who didn't even know or care who Arya Stark is or was. Like the farmer who's mercy killed by the hound, who asks the hound if he's Arya's father. Little folk don't play the game of thrones.

The scene with Tyrion and Jaime talking about their simple cousin with the beetles I just don't understand that point.


I think it was supposed to be an exposition on the nature of man, and humans' desire to kill. Tyrion was trying to understand what he assumed was a basic human drive and why he didn't share it at the time.

I kind of missed Tyrion throwing up though.


Me too! But one does not ask a first billed actor to vomit like a common seagull.
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:47 am

Hey guys just a disclaimer, I posted this as "show spoilers" so if you go into book details please post under a spoiler tag or, or for more in-depth predictions maybe start a new thread :)


a poster mentioned that LF didn't have time to coach Sansa; I'm actually not so positive about that. No guards came a running after Lysa flew so it's quite plausible that LF had time to say ok look we're both dead if we don't hatch a story, here's how it goes...


Yeah I do think there must have been some kind of "quick, this is what happened" moment, but he still had to be a little worried that Sansa might mess it up. I do believe that her reveal as Sansa Stark was a surprise to LF, and I like that HOW pointed out that it provides Sansa with her own form of insurance again LF doing any moon-door-ing to herself. Little dove's learning.

I had a slight complaint about Tywin declaring for Gregor but of course we know that has to happen too, but I do wonder, has there not been thought given to what happens if both combatants die? Is it a draw? Do they have to fight for the truth again and find new Champions? Is it strictly just who dies first? Poor Tyrion was robbed! :p


I think it is who dies first.. I mean, Oberyn is clearly dead and will definitely not recover. Mountain's currently up in the air, but Oberyn died first. I think too that Tywin just wanted to declare it while he could (while Gregor's technically alive and it can't be contested!). I would imagine that that would be the usual way of doing things - if they both die then whoever died first is the loser. Anyone read the rulebook?

Too often I see movies think that fast editing or shaky cam = intense, edge of your seat action.

Urgh yes I hate over-use of shaky cam! Fact is your eyes are pretty damn good at what they do, especially when it's life-or-death.

I kind of missed Tyrion throwing up though.


Me too! But one does not ask a first billed actor to vomit like a common seagull.


Haha, yeah missed it myself, I think because it's just such a visceral reaction that fits the moment so aptly. But right from the off he was a lot less confident that he was in the books - no big breakfast or confident swagger, instead he's worried that Oberyn's not wearing a helm or enough armour.
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Re: S04E08 (show spoilers)

Postby GeekFurious » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:00 pm

The Tyrion story about his cousin was an amazing scene. I chuckle reading some call it pointless. It reminds me of when someone in a class I was in said "She Being Brand" by EE Cummings was "Meaningless! He's just talking about a car! It's stupid!"

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