S04E07 (spoilers)

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S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby Steppricon » Sun May 18, 2014 10:01 pm

EXTREMELY impressed with the Tyrion/oberyn scene, more award worthy work from Dinklage. Bravo to this episode as a whole also, the season is building quite nicely
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Sun May 18, 2014 10:21 pm

Agreed. Another good episode. I thought it started pretty slow but the last 3rd made up for it. I like how they're handling this season by showing a few scenes for some of the characters rather than show one quick scene with all the characters.
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Mon May 19, 2014 2:59 am

Agreed, I thought it was really great. It included some of the scenes that I was sad to see cut from the book, like the Hound telling how he got his burns, and Oberyn telling the story of when he meet baby Tyrion when he visited Casterly Rock. The Oberyn/Tyrion scene was perfect. The exchange between Jamie and Tyrion at the start of the scene was also really well done, very subtle facial acting.

I also thought the exchange between Jorah and Daario was great interplay (Poor Jorah, he is all kinds of friend-zoned).
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Mon May 19, 2014 5:04 am

Overall, I have to agree as well, this was a very good episode.

The scenes with Tyrion were each powerful in their own way. I liked the exchange with Tyrion and Jaime, it had both comic moments and pretty serious moments. I thought that it was just a bit odd that Tyrion seemingly had to explain to Jaime about Tywin's plan(s). You'd have thought that after seeing how the trial was going and then seeing how fast Tywin said "done" to his proposal that Jaime just MIGHT'VE realized he'd just got took, but no. I still liked Tyrion's delivery if not the supposed need for him to actually have to deliver what seemed obvious. I felt that Tyrion was just saying it like it is to Jaime referring to him as the Golden Son, being a Kingslayer, losing his hand and fucking his sister but STILL the golden boy, he didn't seem to me to be meaning it cruelly but Jaime kind of took it as a dig, still a nice exchange. I'm not so sure I liked the show changing it from Jaime just not being able to Champion him because he's KG and a KG cannot champion someone accused of killing a blood royal (as per the books). I mean I guess it works well enough in that Jaime is being honest enough with both himself and Tyrion that he can't hope to win, because he actually knows it's the Mountain, although he doesn't state it. Their exchange about how it would just really get Tywin's panties in a bunch if Jaime were to lose and they both had to die was a kind of cool brotherly moment we haven't really seen between Jaime and Tyrion and I liked that.

I kind of had my suspicions about how they were going to work Bronn out of it and I thought it was done well enough. I liked the exchanges they had and ultimately that they part on good terms, it felt genuine.

Of course, the scene with Oberyn is just awesome. I appreciated this scene a lot and feel that both actors really delivered each line very effectively. You just felt Tyrion's hurt as Oberyn explains to him just how long Cersei truly has wanted him dead. Then likewise you feel how Oberyn sort of empathizes with how Tyrion must feel and even feels that Tyrion is on some level right about his tirade during the trial, he has been on trial his whole life just for being a dwarf. While it was unspoken by Oberyn, I feel it's implied by the fact that he tells him the story as well as ultimately declaring that he will champion him. Now, we might say, well of course he was going to champion him, he gets his shot at The Mountain! I feel that the shot at Gregor is certainly a huge factor in Oberyn's choice but I got the feeling that he would've done it anyway even if it hadn't been Gregor championing Cersei/The Crown. You know you sort of wish Oberyn and Tyrion had gotten more time together (in the books) because I think they might've actually had a great relationship. As it is though we'll just have to be happy with Oberyn's sacrifice but I felt the scenes were all superb.

Onto the scenes with Arya and Sandor... I 'liked' them well enough, they were done well and I like their chemistry together. My only real problem was it felt to me a bit like just another filler scene, something that didn't really advance the plot any but did fill some time, but with that small criticism aside, I liked it. I wasn't a big fan of them using Rorge and Biter here and taking them away from Brienne and Pod's story arc but meh, we're still arriving in Albuquerque right? (Or is that taking a wrong turn? HAR!) The other small issue I had with these scenes was Arya killing Rorge. Not that she killed him, but she killed him with him holding a sword out already in hand while she had to unsheath hers and make a decent lunge to get him. I just felt that it didn't have enough surprise to it and seemed a tad on the unbelievable side. He could've been a bit distracted by Sandor (seeing as he was to be considered the greater threat among the two) or something along those lines that allowed Arya to get a nice easy thrust in but it's not a huge issue that I'd condemn the scene over. I also thought it was a nice touch to kind of show that while we're seeing this really dark side of Arya (because of her age mostly) that the show is trying to show the audience that she still has a softer humane side to her still in asking to dress the bite wound and likewise for Sandor to acquiesce and let her as well. A nice moment for each to show a softer side.

The Brienne and Podrick scenes felt pretty well done, although I might've liked to see Brienne be a bit more standoffish to Hot Pie at first. She gives the facial expression after he sits down and starts talking about how to make a great Kidney Pie but other than that I'd have liked a quick quip maybe from her, it seems more to her character and personality, but that was just something I thought would reinforce her personality, not that it took away from anything. I thought it was cute that she kind of gave Pod a dig about being honest about whom they were looking for after Pod had mentioned to her that a bit of discretion might be best, but I'm calling it here and now, that is going to come up again where Pod is actually wise to suggest it... I just have a feeling.

The scene with Mel and Selyse, kind of meh, I thought it was a decent thing as far the show trying to flesh out their characters a little more, especially for the non-book readers (or the unsullied I guess we're calling them), but having the scene be mainly about Shireen and whether she should or shouldn't be going with them when they sail seemed kind of meh to me personally. I liked their dialogue about the powders and the tricks more than the rest but I guess it's meant to give us a setup for something that Shireen's plot will be facing later, which we'll have to see how that plays out since we know that isn't fleshed out in the books yet.

The scenes with Dany and Daario and Jorah were pretty good too. I know some people don't like Emilia's 'range' as an actress but I'm not sure if I think it's that or that the writers and directors are sort of asking her for a certain kind of delivery when she's having some of these dialogues she has. The parts with Daario feel as if she's trying to assert herself as the dominant one over him, despite the fact that she's physically inferior to him, but the parts with Jorah felt more genuine and natural as far as her delivery goes. I don't mind the twist with her sending Hizdahr to sort of clear up this mess in Yunkai and I appreciated that she threw Jorah a bone in having him tell Daario that it was he who's convinced Dany to alter the orders/mission. The only problem I had with the scene was Jorah telling her that if Ned had done to him what Dany wanted to do to the masters that he'd not be there now was a little out of place, especially for unsullied readers and heck, maybe even for us book readers too. If he hadn't ran off into exile Ned would've effected that result sure, but the delivery he gave made it seem like Ned had showed mercy to him when I highly doubt that would've been the case. A minor problem for me, I won't hold it too much against 'em.

The Castle Black scene felt like a lot of the same we've already seen, Alliser being an @ss to Jon simply because he could felt meh, seen it... Not one question about how the mission went (I suppose they might've had an offscreen debrief but they should've shown that instead I feel), but straight to, "keep that beast elsewhere" just seemed like a lack of imagination for a scene on the writer's part. I also have to express my distaste for how they've portrayed Janos Slynt. I get that they're trying to establish that his former position in KL is due in part to his seemingly quick rise in the NW for doing absolutely nothing but it just doesn't feel right to me. The NW sure didn't treat Jon that way when he got there being a lord's son, bastard or no, Janos is just as low as Jon if not lower being a butcher's son. It just doesn't feel right to me but I do get that they're setting the stage for a Janos/Jon confrontation later. Later in the scene in the dining hall, I liked that as far as Alliser questioning Jon's logic and feeling superior and not heeding Jon's advice about the gate. I felt that was a good scene as far as Alliser trying to make himself appear smarter and even getting some support from Yarwyck, I felt that advanced the conflict that's been brewing between the two since day one. The only part that I didn't like was that Maester Aemon is not present at the meal. I mean, I would've appreciated just a quick line that maybe explained that he was resting or was otherwise indisposed to come to dinner, but when the rest of the leadership is sitting at the table and there's no Aemon, it seems out of place for me personally.

The one other thing that kind of bothers me is the whole subplot of going to Craster's with this group of volunteers and the placement of that within the season itself when contrasted to the fact that there's a wildling contingent on the south side of the wall and that Jon has been saying that they're coming anytime now but we have this diversion of a roundtrip of 120 miles in going to Craster's and back which couldn't have just taken a day or two. That feels out of place considering we were given the scenes with Tormund and the Thenns so early in the season and the fact that last season ended with this group already on the other side of the wall. I kind of think that could've been rearranged in such a way as to make that feel tighter as a timeline, it feels like weeks or months and that doesn't feel really believable to me. I realize that the intent is that they're primarily waiting for Mance's party to get in position but having absolutely zero scenes at all this season regarding that makes these subplots feel a little forced or at the least, too spread out over time within the story. I guess I'll wait until episode nine to see if they do something that makes me rethink that position but as it stands, it felt too choppy.

Lastly of course we have Sansa, Littlefinger, Lysa and Sweetrobin's scenes. I thought that it was nice to have no real deviation from the books here, it made the scene feel smooth, perhaps predictable to us readers but satisfying nonetheless. I myself didn't care for the Robin actor or maybe just the lines he's given. He seems completely out of touch with reality, not that that is out of the realm of truth for Robin's character, it just felt sort of like he was really clueless to reality. The boy wasn't born in the Eyrie, he actually believes that all castles are built on top of/in the side of a mountain and that all have moon doors? That just didn't feel genuine to me but again a minor thing, nothing that made the scene intolerable. I wasn't entirely sold on Lysa's tears, I'd perhaps have preferred to have her have a line or two after throwing Sansa aside and before Petyr gave her his line and a helpful shove, but I will say that I liked Petyr's delivery and Lysa's facial expression just before he says "your sister" and give her the ol' heave-ho.

Still feel this is a very strong episode and even without a lot of action it felt powerful and had a lot of good one-on-one scenes with characters which I think is one of the show's strong points, they do those very well almost 100% of the time.
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby Webswinger » Mon May 19, 2014 1:22 pm

SerKnute wrote:Overall, I have to agree as well, this was a very good episode.
I kind of had my suspicions about how they were going to work Bronn out of it and I thought it was done well enough. I liked the exchanges they had and ultimately that they part on good terms, it felt genuine.


The more and more I'm here the more and more I realize how much I forgot from the books. This scene is the way I remember it, or did they change it? I did what Tyrion to ask Bronn about Shae though.

SerKnute wrote:Onto the scenes with Arya and Sandor... I 'liked' them well enough, they were done well and I like their chemistry together. My only real problem was it felt to me a bit like just another filler scene, something that didn't really advance the plot any but did fill some time, but with that small criticism aside, I liked it. I wasn't a big fan of them using Rorge and Biter here and taking them away from Brienne and Pod's story arc but meh, we're still arriving in Albuquerque right? (Or is that taking a wrong turn? HAR!) The other small issue I had with these scenes was Arya killing Rorge. Not that she killed him, but she killed him with him holding a sword out already in hand while she had to unsheath hers and make a decent lunge to get him. I just felt that it didn't have enough surprise to it and seemed a tad on the unbelievable side. He could've been a bit distracted by Sandor (seeing as he was to be considered the greater threat among the two) or something along those lines that allowed Arya to get a nice easy thrust in but it's not a huge issue that I'd condemn the scene over. I also thought it was a nice touch to kind of show that while we're seeing this really dark side of Arya (because of her age mostly) that the show is trying to show the audience that she still has a softer humane side to her still in asking to dress the bite wound and likewise for Sandor to acquiesce and let her as well. A nice moment for each to show a softer side.


This scene didn't seem like filler to me. It moved the hounds plot along. He finally got the wound that will "kill" him. you also get the scene with the farmer where Sandor give him mercy setting up Arya to not give the Hound mercy when the time comes. You could say there was a lot of foreshadowing in this. You have killing for mercy, the bite, Arya not killing until she knew Rorge's name(I thought that was great dialog), and Arya telling Sandor to cauterize the wound or it could fester. The way they did this gave us a bunch of extra episodes of "The Wolf & The Hound", and I for one am very glad.

SerKnute wrote:The Brienne and Podrick scenes felt pretty well done, although I might've liked to see Brienne be a bit more standoffish to Hot Pie at first. She gives the facial expression after he sits down and starts talking about how to make a great Kidney Pie but other than that I'd have liked a quick quip maybe from her, it seems more to her character and personality, but that was just something I thought would reinforce her personality, not that it took away from anything. I thought it was cute that she kind of gave Pod a dig about being honest about whom they were looking for after Pod had mentioned to her that a bit of discretion might be best, but I'm calling it here and now, that is going to come up again where Pod is actually wise to suggest it... I just have a feeling.


I think they are trying to capture the Arya & Sandor vibe with these two and its just not as good. When Hotpie sat down I thought he was going to tell them it had rat meat and something gross for the gravy. I also agree with you about discretion, more foreshadowing.

SerKnute wrote:The scene with Mel and Selyse, kind of meh, I thought it was a decent thing as far the show trying to flesh out their characters a little more, especially for the non-book readers (or the unsullied I guess we're calling them), but having the scene be mainly about Shireen and whether she should or shouldn't be going with them when they sail seemed kind of meh to me personally. I liked their dialogue about the powders and the tricks more than the rest but I guess it's meant to give us a setup for something that Shireen's plot will be facing later, which we'll have to see how that plays out since we know that isn't fleshed out in the books yet.


This was confusing to me. Mel was talking about tricks but we know she has powers, did she use something on Selyse to make her see what she wanted even though she said she didn't? Was this a Red Herring with all the poisons she had?

SerKnute wrote:The scenes with Dany and Daario and Jorah were pretty good too. I know some people don't like Emilia's 'range' as an actress but I'm not sure if I think it's that or that the writers and directors are sort of asking her for a certain kind of delivery when she's having some of these dialogues she has. The parts with Daario feel as if she's trying to assert herself as the dominant one over him, despite the fact that she's physically inferior to him, but the parts with Jorah felt more genuine and natural as far as her delivery goes. I don't mind the twist with her sending Hizdahr to sort of clear up this mess in Yunkai and I appreciated that she threw Jorah a bone in having him tell Daario that it was he who's convinced Dany to alter the orders/mission. The only problem I had with the scene was Jorah telling her that if Ned had done to him what Dany wanted to do to the masters that he'd not be there now was a little out of place, especially for unsullied readers and heck, maybe even for us book readers too. If he hadn't ran off into exile Ned would've effected that result sure, but the delivery he gave made it seem like Ned had showed mercy to him when I highly doubt that would've been the case. A minor problem for me, I won't hold it too much against 'em.


Ned would have let him take the black and not killed him. If he took the black he wouldn't have been their to help Danny so it might be a moot point.

SerKnute wrote:I also have to express my distaste for how they've portrayed Janos Slynt. I get that they're trying to establish that his former position in KL is due in part to his seemingly quick rise in the NW for doing absolutely nothing but it just doesn't feel right to me. The NW sure didn't treat Jon that way when he got there being a lord's son, bastard or no, Janos is just as low as Jon if not lower being a butcher's son. It just doesn't feel right to me but I do get that they're setting the stage for a Janos/Jon confrontation later.


Janos may be a son of a butcher but he is also the former lord of Herrinhall. As we know from the prologue of book 1 they give lordlings special treatment.

SerKnute wrote:Lastly of course we have Sansa, Littlefinger, Lysa and Sweetrobin's scenes. I thought that it was nice to have no real deviation from the books here, it made the scene feel smooth, perhaps predictable to us readers but satisfying nonetheless. I myself didn't care for the Robin actor or maybe just the lines he's given. He seems completely out of touch with reality, not that that is out of the realm of truth for Robin's character, it just felt sort of like he was really clueless to reality. The boy wasn't born in the Eyrie, he actually believes that all castles are built on top of/in the side of a mountain and that all have moon doors? That just didn't feel genuine to me but again a minor thing, nothing that made the scene intolerable. I wasn't entirely sold on Lysa's tears, I'd perhaps have preferred to have her have a line or two after throwing Sansa aside and before Petyr gave her his line and a helpful shove, but I will say that I liked Petyr's delivery and Lysa's facial expression just before he says "your sister" and give her the ol' heave-ho.


If I'm not mistaken the bard was in the room when Petyr gave the push. Without the bard there to blame how is Petyr getting out of this?

I thought this episode was fantastic, and I can only think of a couple of things the book readers may be upset about.
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Mon May 19, 2014 7:29 pm

Yeah, actually Webswinger, you're right, I might've been a bit harsh in that thinking, it does move Sandor and Arya's story along, I just didn't prefer that it be them, I would've liked to have seen Rorge and Biter filter over into Brienne and Pod's stories like the books but you're right, it does serve for Sandor's wound.

I still don't really like the way it appears that Janos just got special treatment because that goes against the nature of the NW, but I guess the way I can look at it is that it just adds to the further dwindling of the order towards its vows and such.

As far as Petyr goes, yes I am curious how they're going to resolve that, it appears in the previews for the next episode Sansa is called into a sort of court and it appears that she's giving some testimony that pertains to Petyr, but I suspect he'll have briefed her how to answer in his favor.
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby Phoenix » Tue May 20, 2014 12:37 am

I thought it was cute that she kind of gave Pod a dig about being honest about whom they were looking for after Pod had mentioned to her that a bit of discretion might be best, but I'm calling it here and now, that is going to come up again where Pod is actually wise to suggest it... I just have a feeling.


I think you're right on the money with this one. We as viewers know she can trust Hot Pie, and even so when Brienne laid it all out for him I was like "What are you doing?! He's a total stranger to you! Trust nobody!"

The scene with Mel and Selyse, kind of meh.


I do agree with this, didn't have much to it aside from establishing that they are leaving sometime soon (but they've been leaving sometime soon for a while now). Maybe trying to heighten the mystery for the unsullied as to where they're going?

Also, where was Mel's choker?! Shouldn't she need to wear that all the time?

"keep that beast elsewhere" just seemed like a lack of imagination for a scene on the writer's part.

Haha yeah, GCI's expensive so it would be convenient if Jon could just keep Ghost shut away until he's essential to the plot.

As to the NW's scene, I liked the subtle way that Sam grabbed Jon's arm just as tensions were rising. Jon hadn't made a move yet to retaliate to Throne, but his pot was clearly close to boiling point, and Sam recognised the danger and reacted before Jon said or did something worse. Go, Slayer, go!

The boy wasn't born in the Eyrie, he actually believes that all castles are built on top of/in the side of a mountain and that all have moon doors?


Very true! I didn't really take note of this at the time, but the kid was in KL for a significant part of his life, so he would know that there are castles on the flat and without moon doors. Seems like a writing oversight.

Arya not killing until she knew Rorge's name(I thought that was great dialog)


Yes I liked this too. A (wo)man needs a name.

Janos may be a son of a butcher but he is also the former lord of Herrinhall. As we know from the prologue of book 1 they give lordlings special treatment.


I do agree with this - We learn that Ser Waymar Royce was given special treatment. Jon gets picked on because he's a bastard, not a Lord. Thorne and Jon's personalities also clash, while Thorne and Slynt get on like holdfasts on fire.

If I'm not mistaken the bard was in the room when Petyr gave the push. Without the bard there to blame how is Petyr getting out of this?


I wondered this too, but I'm sure they have their own plans as to how this will go - maybe Petyr will claim that Lysa tried to kill Sansa, and he saved her but Lysa fell in the struggle. I guess we'll have to wait til next episode to find out!
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby SerKnute » Tue May 20, 2014 5:23 am

I just got done listening/watching the episode review with our gracious hosts and had a couple of things to comment on...

The one thing that stood out to me as far as foreshadowing was when Aziz mentioned Jon greeting Guymon(do I have his name correct?) and his feeling that he'd be the one who puts the arrow into Ygritte when the battle at Castle Black takes place. I wanted to echo that feeling and on reflection what really cements that notion for me is that scene from earlier in the season when Guymon's village was being attacked, if my memory is serving correctly, the camera is showing Ygritte in the midst of combat and she draws back her bow and puts an arrow into one or two of the villagers then I believe knifes someone else. My thought is this is cleverly meant to be a view from Guymon's eyes and perhaps that he focused on Ygritte because he relates to someone doing something that he himself excels or is good at, that being Archery. So, I may have that a bit misinterpreted but I'm going to stand by my gut feeling that this foreshadows Guymon putting an arrow into Ygritte during the battle at Castle Black.

Like our hosts I was also wondering how the change with Rorge and Biter being involved with Arya and Sandor's story and now dead affects Brienne and Podrick's story but I think there's so many ways to have an adventure on the road that many diversions away from their goal of heading toward the Vale are easily doable. I agreed with Sean in that while the show deliberately didn't show us any sign markings at the fork in the road, it was fairly obvious that they took the fork that heads east to the Vale. They begin their journey supposedly heading to Castle Black and the Wall, which is pretty much a straight shot north following the Kingsroad, but we'll see how they decide to do it because looking at the map, you have to be just north of Harrenhal and travelling east on the road from one of the roads along the Trident to come to a fork that would lead north (the Kingsroad) or the other fork that would lead to the Mountains of the Moon. I do think they could still have a diversion with Clarence Crabb and as Aziz alluded to, a possible meeting with Ser Shadrick, however they handle it should be fine but I do doubt that they're just going to show up in the Vale without any diversion what-so-ever. Of course us readers know that she has to eventually come across the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart, which I think makes it sort of necessary that they do have to have some diversions and not get too far really because the Brotherhood is sort of centralized in the Riverlands and fairly close to where Brienne and Pod are now.

It's so ironic too that Brienne learns of Arya being alive which no one has in the books of course (unless we count the Kindly Man) but ironic in that knowing that Sandor is trying to take her to the Vale for his ransom, that the two parties are actually SO CLOSE in proximity but will likely not come across each other. I'd have to suspect that Sandor and Arya are right around the Trident as well, they're probably somewhere between the Blue Fork and the Green Fork but it's possible that they skirted to the south of Harrenhal and are going to make their way over the river after the forks have converged, which puts them close enough that Arya could make for Gulltown after Sandor and her part.
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Tue May 20, 2014 3:47 pm

I found it very interesting that Arya needed to learn Rorge's name before adding him to her list and killing him. This is the exact opposite of the practices of the Faceless Men, whereby they can't kill someone who's name they already knew. There's that really great scene from the books when Arya is on the ship to Braavos, after presenting the iron coin, where all the crew members make sure she knows their names, so that she cannot kill them. Is this sort of reverse-homage to the Faceless Men stuff coming up or the beginning of a very big departure? I tend to think it's homage and an interesting way of setting up the Faceless Men storyline but what do you folks think?
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Re: S04E07 (spoilers)

Postby Greatjon » Tue May 20, 2014 4:56 pm

All the Tyrion scenes were superb, Jaime, Bronn and Oberyn (so happy they had that conversation about what happened when he was a baby). I do feel that they missed a trick by not having these scenes before he declares he wants a trial by combat (which is how it is done in the books if i remember correctly), because Tyrion is a smart character and wouldn't have declared if he hadn't had a champion already. Plus we missed out on Cersei's smug grin being wiped off her face when Oberyn declares for him straight away.

Another nitpick is can you please show someone else in the Eyrie, everyone who watches the show think only 3 people live there, give us some guards or something. Secondly could you please show that the Vale and the Eyrie are a major part of Westeros with an army, my friends who just watch the show don't realize it and think its just a castle in the middle of nowhere.

I also feel that they should spread the Hound/Arya and Podrick/Brienne to different episodes. Have one comedy duo in one episode to lighten the mood and the other in another.

Other then these minor things, it was a great episode.
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