The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Novellas around the time of the Dance of the Dragons.

The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby Azizal » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:16 pm

I enjoyed the read, obviously wished it was longer.

It wasn't edited down from a much larger piece of writing like TPatQ was, so it's a much more cohesive story without loose ends. TPatQ had a lot of characters who died offscreen, or who were introduced then never mentioned again.

So it seems highly likely, but not certain that Rhaenyra's kids "with" Laenor Velaryon were bastards with Ser Harwin Strong. That said, Rhaenyra's mother was an Arryn so the features could possibly come from her. That said, it's hard to believe that all 3 would turn out like that with two Targ looking parents. Laenor was obviously gay and fairly unwilling (at least) to pretend otherwise, so it's no surprise rumors were rampant. It is also pretty clear that Rhaenyra was into very masculine, warrior types, which Laenor was not. Rhaenyra's attractions were primarily: Ser Criston Cole, probably the best knight of his generation; Prince Daemon himself and Ser Harwin "Breakbones" Strong. Bad-ass killers, all three. Laenor was only knighted as a formality, so it seems he wasn't a warrior type, and he was said to be "pretty", which is tantamount to ruggedness of Rhaenyra's chosen lovers.

Viserys' ignoring the bastardy, which was clearly an issue for so many people, was a huge part of the build up to the Dance. Despite being a pushover, he seems like a decent king, except in this, where he failed horribly. Calling a woman's kids paternity into question is one of the oldest tricks in the book, and maybe that's what Viserys hung his subconscious hat on. In a vacuum he seems as blind as Tywin to Jaime/Cersei.

I'm amused by the fact that Vhagar has appeared in all these stories and tellings of the conquest and we still don't know what color she was. Interesting to see how quickly Aemond bonded Vhagar.

The Velaryons were really powerful, perhaps in a position to be the real power behind the throne had things gone differently. Laena had Vhagar, and Laenor had Seasmoke. Lord Corlys had the most powerful fleet on the eastern seaboard, if not all of Westeros. From the WOIAF app, Lord Corlys is the source for much of what Westeros knows about the northern coast of Essos. He got very rich during these explorations, but that wealth was lost during the Dance when his holdings were sacked. He was married to a former claimant to the throne, Princess Rhaenys "The Queen Who Never Was" and they had married Prince Daemon himself as an ally, and thus Caraxes. That is the vast majority of the adult dragons at the time.

Nowadays, they are nothing special. They need an episode of their own, one day.
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby DarrenT » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:40 pm

Very good read! I enjoyed it a lot. A couple of questions I had, maybe they are answered by tPatQ but it's been a while since I read it and I'm a little foggy:

1) Are Rhaenyra's children with Laenor Velaryon/Ser Harwin Strong mentioned in tPatQ? I can't remember if they are killed or just simply not mentioned because clearly her son with Daemon took the throne.

2) Why did Rhaenyra's son Aegon III take the throne after his uncle Aegon II instead of Aegon II's sons? Were they all killed or was there a council I can't remember?
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby Vaxis » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:02 pm

DarrenT wrote:Very good read! I enjoyed it a lot. A couple of questions I had, maybe they are answered by tPatQ but it's been a while since I read it and I'm a little foggy:

1) Are Rhaenyra's children with Laenor Velaryon/Ser Harwin Strong mentioned in tPatQ? I can't remember if they are killed or just simply not mentioned because clearly her son with Daemon took the throne.

2) Why did Rhaenyra's son Aegon III take the throne after his uncle Aegon II instead of Aegon II's sons? Were they all killed or was there a council I can't remember?


1) Yes, all three of those kids appear in tPatQ and play big roles. Lucerys was murdered by Aemond on dragonback near Storms End, Jacaerys died during the Battle of the Gullet, and young Joffrey tried to fly to the Dragonpit when it was mob-rushed, but he fell and died. The only reason Aegon III took the throne after all this is because Rhaenyra's elder children all died.

2) Well, Aegon II's eldest son Jaehaerys was murdered by an assassin paid by Daemon in tPatQ, and the youngest son Maelor... well he was smuggled off to safety in Oldtown, but Maelor was only 3 years old, so Aegon III definitely seemed the better successor. The alternative is that Maelor later died.
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby bstnsx704 » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:35 am

Can't wait to get my hands on this one!

I'll probably reread TPatQ immediately after; should make for a more full experience.
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby ColdHandsGlover » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:56 am

Just read The Rogue Prince and wondered if you could clear something up for me. From memory it is Grand Maester Orwyle in the start of tPatQ at the meeting of the small council, but it states at the end of The Rogue Prince that Grand Maester Gerardys was in place at the time of Viserys I death.
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby Daja » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:09 am

After reading the Rogue Prince, I wondered how everyone managed to keep their dragons in line so well. No problems in handling and controlling them at all which made me think about Dany and her inability to tame her three dragons. She can't even control Drogon with whom she has bonded the most. I really wonder how the Targaryens did this in earlier times, like if it was only dragon lore or if there's more to it. Aemond becomes pretty quickly Vhagar's rider. I would love to know how that really works... Did the Maester telling the story just not give any details or is it really that simple? What do you think?

By the way, I loved Patrick Rothfuss' allusion to GRRM and A Song of Ice and Fire in The Lightning Tree! Winter's coming!
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby Azizal » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:09 pm

ColdHandsGlover wrote:Just read The Rogue Prince and wondered if you could clear something up for me. From memory it is Grand Maester Orwyle in the start of tPatQ at the meeting of the small council, but it states at the end of The Rogue Prince that Grand Maester Gerardys was in place at the time of Viserys I death.


I'm a bit confused by that as well, and I've spoken to some people about it. One theory is that the editor made a change (TPatQ was heavily edited down to 34k words from the 80k GRRM wrote). So for now I don't know, but I can guess that we'll have it figured out by the time we cover this in an episode.

Daja wrote:After reading the Rogue Prince, I wondered how everyone managed to keep their dragons in line so well. No problems in handling and controlling them at all which made me think about Dany and her inability to tame her three dragons. She can't even control Drogon with whom she has bonded the most. I really wonder how the Targaryens did this in earlier times, like if it was only dragon lore or if there's more to it. Aemond becomes pretty quickly Vhagar's rider. I would love to know how that really works... Did the Maester telling the story just not give any details or is it really that simple? What do you think?


I would agree that the maesters probably don't know some of the details of keeping the dragons in line, so they weren't able to write about it. We certainly see Aemond, Lucerys and Daemon using whips at the very least, but the details are pretty scant.

Not all that many maesters had experience with dragons. Maegor built the Dragonpit (not sure if was alive for its completion), but many dragons were still raised on Dragonstone. Then during Viserys I's reign, there were basically two dragonrider families, and the dragons were more spread out. But before that they were all in King's Landing and Dragonstone, which means only a handful of maesters (and other knowledgeable people like Septon Barth) got to work up close with dragons. The vast majority of maesters have/had only book-knowledge, even when dragons existed.
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby SabsInTheNorth » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:36 pm

The Rogue mentions Daemon Targaryen had mistress from Lys, and she sent back to Lys after he gave her a dragon egg, and Viserys was really upset about it, and demanded he return to his wife.

He name was Mysaria & she was pregnant, but lost the child on the voyage back. Any chance the miscarriage was a lie and that child could be part of Serra's/Young griffs lineage? Or am I really stretching?
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Re: The Rogue Prince is now out! (spoilers)

Postby jacob » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:41 pm

Dragons are obligate carnivores, with diets consisting entirely of meat. I love the way how dagons need to roast their prey with their fire-breath before consuming it. And they can eat almost any kind of meat, anything from sheep to fish. Historical dragons ridden as beasts of war were known to eat fallen horses and even men on the battlefield.
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